Kolomo
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Post by Kolomo on Feb 20, 2015 18:10:04 GMT
Here a few quotes from very different paths that seem to all point to the same thing.
"Surrender all your frivolous self-concepts and acknowledge your nothingness to the Lord. Whether you understand it or not, God is present in you, lives in you, offers you an understanding and compassion which are like nothing you have ever found in a book or heard in a sermon.”
— Thomas Merton
“To take just a single step on this journey is to leave all the petty concerns of success and self-image behind forever”
— Jed McKenna
"It takes some training to equate complete letting go with comfort. But in fact, ‘nothing to hold on to’ is the root of all happiness. There’s a sense of freedom when we accept that we are not in control."
- Perma Chodron
All that is required is to let go of who you pretend to be and just be as you are
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tony
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Post by tony on Feb 21, 2015 0:48:45 GMT
Excellent post, Kolomo. Excellent in that it is free from being attached to any single expression as/of the Truth, and also as it implies that 'transformation' is possible for all sentient beings by seeing through a habit pattern (self-concepts) and adopting another (nothing to hold on to). There are many other expressions (ever since the ancient Rishis in India first described and pointed to THAT) which point to that same thing. This one, from the Buddha I offer as a basic attitude to all our endeavours and efforts to understand:
“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it.
Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumoured by many.
Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books.
Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders.
Do not believe in traditions simply because they have been handed down for many generations.
But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it."
_()_
Tony
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bee
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Post by bee on Feb 21, 2015 12:41:16 GMT
Good topic
That is a truism-
Attachment = Defining oneself with habits or patterns of behavior
Is belief in the patterns then responsible for the false self?
If so how does one truly let go of any pattern?
Is trust intrinsic in the let go?
So the unit muses 'trust in what'?
Trust in the universe?
Trust in life itself?
Anyway IT plays out IS life itself
Can that trust then be practised without faith?
If not, why not?
So then what is faith?
Is faith the knowing awareness that we are?
If so then can we trust without that faith?
Is there a difference?
If so, what is it?
Be interested to hear others perspectives on this
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Kolomo
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Post by Kolomo on Feb 21, 2015 13:14:08 GMT
So perhaps, we can look at all the different spiritual traditions in their most true sense as a way to release ourselves from the matrix of fear bound beliefs or in the more positive light; rediscover or uncover what we really are. This is something that can’t really be known or else we would all know it. As such, everyone must cut their own path to the unknowable. Bee brings up the great point how do we do this? Although it is not my way, I have heard it said many times that devotion to God is the quickest path. I take on a more nonduality approach but I see nothing in this path that is in conflict with any other way. It seems to me almost any good religious quote I hear reflects nonduality. But the way I see it, the bottom line in all these paths is that there is nothing to be gained, nothing to know, in fact knowing gets in the way. So thinking you may have any type of spiritual knowledge that makes you even the tiniest bit superior to any other person, throws you way off in the land of the chronically deluded. You are dreaming you are enlightened in a dream. I know I might, at times, be able to regurgitate things I have read but that doesn’t add up to anything. All ways are the right way unless you think you know the way. Perhaps, as Bee suggest, we should start a new thread discussing our practice of ‘letting go’ or, as in other cases, devotion or faith.
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bee
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Post by bee on Feb 21, 2015 14:01:04 GMT
Yes the practice of letting go.. of what..
the false identity,
This identity is, as I see it as, that of Adam eating the apple. There as the fable goes is the unknowing or the misbelief in the self, or the unit, or as Eckhart terms it, the egoic mind.
But to let go is tantamount to death as it can feel like the end or the death of the self.
So it may be good to start a new topic on this simply because if one is able to surrender the self in the moment, and the moment, etc. then there is the reality.
But to know how to achieve this surrender, and most importantly to practice, not just in meditation but in all the movements of this life, is the doing rather than the reading or the talking.
No way is really no self.
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tony
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Post by tony on Feb 22, 2015 21:39:12 GMT
Who is practicing letting go? Who is able to surrender the self? Can it be the self? Any practice that has an aim such as 'letting go', 'enlightenment', 'waking up' comes from a belief that 'What Is' (as It happens in every Moment) is not It. Who is attached to that belief?
An 'answer' can come from a line of inquiry into 'the self': its existence, reality, etc. and into the phenomenon of a self-centered perspective.
Direct 'seeing' or Apperception, i.e. Understanding not mediated by a self-centered perspective based on concepts, words, rationalizing reveals What Is. Devotion and Faith are in That 'direct seeing' which cannot be achieved by thinking or belief.
_()_
Tony
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Post by forum22015 on Mar 8, 2015 1:39:55 GMT
Hi Guys and Ladies,
How about some basics like what is the practice of surrender. How is it done successfully. I read recently by Nirmala that surrender is to rest. What do you think?
Love,
a
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Kolomo
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Post by Kolomo on Mar 8, 2015 2:32:59 GMT
I love your picture! Is surrender the same as acceptance? Seems that way to me
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bee
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Post by bee on Mar 8, 2015 13:10:18 GMT
Hi 'a' alias forum22015
Had a chuckle at your photo showing such a great surprise.
That look of absolute shock; is that what it was like when You (Your Awareness) first discovered that Its avatar (you, the egoic self, the unit) wasn't You?
If so it's a great depiction of what it would be like when a realisation hits fully in the instant. For most though I feel that uncovering is like the rain gradually, drop by drop, washing away the dream.
BTW it's great to hear from you.
Surrender is similar to acceptance though,
because of language once again, acceptance doesn't have the depth or the completness of surrender.
Surrender is total.
It is regardless of anything else.
Surrendering oneself is completely letting go of any and all beliefs, it is a total dropping of any identification. It lets one realise the awake dream is really no different to the asleep dream, except the awake dream is more believed to be real. They both are the belief in whatever story line happens to be currently playing out. Surrendering the story dissolves the ego for if there is no story there is no central character.
To try and give an answer to a's question, "how do we practice surrender successfully"?
Do we not practice whenever we fully trust life?
What is it we are doing when we totally trust life?
Or, what Is It we are actually trusting in when we trust life Itself?
This unit would love to hear what emanates from the awareness of others regarding the questions.
I note when I surrender, in those moments I have no separate identity and whatever is, when I truly surrender, is perfect. It has a state of beauty about it regardless what it is.
It is easy to love this beauty, or really this feeling of beauty. But there is no identity from which to love, as there is no object or state to love, It Is just Love.
From others viewpoints in fact I note it may not be nice at all. But a surrendering is like a total encompassing of what is in that moment.
It is seen as the experiencer and that whatever it is happening is not ourself but an unfolding within ourself. There is no personal identity or investment of self.
The great part about practising surrender is it is always done in the now, in this precise present moment. So I can surrender for a second or a minute, but it's still surrendering the will for anything to be any different.
With practise it is then easier to do again and again even if only for a second or two or three.
"a" it's a really good question of "how is it done successfully", thanks.
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Kolomo
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Post by Kolomo on Mar 8, 2015 17:29:37 GMT
Bee, I really, truly liked your comments. Now, it’s going sound like what I am about to say is different from what you said but it’s really not.
How is it done? It cannot be done. The mind cannot surrender itself.
Last night I watched a Japanese movie about Dogen, it was called ‘Zen’. A lot of the scenes were of monks facing a wall meditating; trying to ‘drop body and mind’. Then, of course, being a movie, there was a little sexual intrigue. When one of the monks could not momentarily resist the temptation of a woman sucking on his leg (under the pretense of trying to suck out snake poison), he went into downward spiral of shame. He had to take leave of the monastery because he was possessed by ‘demons’.
This is where I am at (at least at the time of writing this): The whole idea of enlightenment, dropping body and mind, practicing the way of ‘authentic’ Buddhism, surrendering to God, can really get in the way. Although they all point to non duality, they easily become a form of attachment. You are already It. Seeking these fantasies (the pointer as reality) takes you away from the divinity of what you already are. The path to hell is paved with these well intended fantasies. So for me, what I am realizing, is that its ok to feel sad, disconnected or whatever. I know that this body mind will go through a whole range of emotions, and its ok.(the movie alluded to this as well, for Dogen cried, became heartbroken and angry at times)
Here is a quote from Wayne Liquorman that says it much better than I could.
“People have this fantasy that when there is enlightenment there is no longer any pain and everything becomes beautiful - all sweetness and lights. That’s not true. Life is by its very nature exquisitely beautiful and exquisitely painful. As long as there is life in the organism, there will be beauty and horror, joy and sorrow. What we can call the blessing of the Ultimate Understanding is that there is no suffering attendant to the pain. There is not the slightest sense that things as they are, no matter how painful, should be different. Everything happens just as it should. In that acceptance, there is peace even in the most profound grief, the most profound pain."
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bee
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Post by bee on Mar 8, 2015 22:27:15 GMT
kolomo of course you are correct in that how can the mind surrender itself? It's a complete contradiction.
Baby steps though generally always come first. Trust, forgiveness, a letting go, surrendering.
But what is surrendering is the awareness's investment in its very own pet, which is the egoic unit.
Awareness does enjoy Its pet, or call it Its child if this term suits better, and because of this, unbeknown to either the unit or awareness, It wants Its little pet to be happy.
But from experience whenever awareness fully accepts, (I use the verb love here as it depicts a doing of complete acceptance), It allows the unit to feel whatever it is going through in the moment.
It may be pain but when that painful experience is loved one does find something extraordinary happens - nothing is removed from the experience or the circumstances of the pain, in fact the pain actually grows in intensity.
But then a really weird thing occurs, the painful experience, being loved, is no longer hurting. The experience has not been removed just the units reaction to it.
Awareness does slowly realise It may not in fact be the unit or the pet, but far more.
A dawning occurs that It may just be that Love and the Total Intelligence that all experiences play out in.
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Kolomo
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Post by Kolomo on Mar 10, 2015 2:06:49 GMT
I like that; awareness investments in its pet or child. The child runs deep and you don’t realize it until a threat is perceived. I know with myself, if I’m left alone things are easy but at work having to interact with a lot of people, I realize the child is there fully alive and getting a little sensitive. Forgive and trust; those are good too.
There is also ‘surrender made easy’ that I just stumbled upon. I know, there is no formula or technique that is going to really work, but I figure I’d give it a whirl around the block for you guys. (I just learned from my daughter that 'you guys' is an insensitive term, so please excuse, no harm intended)
No matter how much the child is acting up, you can, with a bit of effort, take it down to the ‘I am’ consciousness. The tentacles of the child may be felt in the chest or gut but just let it sit. Stay there with the ‘I am-ness’. Now step two; realize that the ‘I am’ is itself an object in consciousness, albeit, a much more subtle one. When the apparent body dies the ‘I am’ is no longer there. What is left is the pure consciousness, the animating force, if you will. This is really what the ‘I am’ is and what the mind body is,as well. It is just that the mind reflects everything as an object, even itself (through the trickery of time and space). Everything comes out of that ‘I am’ but you cannot possibly conceive its essence; like ‘the eye trying to see the eye’. Now step three: But what you can do is put your focus on it and stay there as long as possible. And there you go, insto- presto – ‘surrender made easy’. Now that I got a title, I just have to write the book. But I’ll be surprised if I don’t go back and delete this in day or two. Isn't it great having admin privileges? Its like the best discussion board ever!(although a couple of more people wouldn't hurt)
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tony
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Post by tony on Mar 10, 2015 3:42:24 GMT
Surrender is done successfully only when there is no 'me' that wants to surrender. There is no 'me' that wants to surrender in a baby, or no 'me' in the flower that simply puts its perfume out for all to share, no 'me' when I Love my neighbour as myself. Therefore, only when "you become like children, you can enter the Kingdom of Heaven".
When the 'me' is active (i.e. when the world is seen from the point of view of a self-center) then there are methods and paths, seeking, desire for enlightenment, expectations of tomorrow being better, for results, etc. However, at the same time, all these 'activities' happen in our lives. We do seek, and engage in methods, and enter paths, and hope for improvement. They are 'facts' of life. There is no problem with any of these approaches, as there is no problem with having a tooth ache. One impersonally and in time responds to the ache, the suffering, the gap in understanding through action, in the same way one goes to the dentist in due course.
Therefore, the pathless path: just do what you are doing! The open secret is Dogen's non-thinking; Jesus' "Thy Will be done"; Meditation without a meditator; Surrender (by no one) to That which is No-thing; Acceptance (by no one) of everything that arises in the time-less experiencing of each moment. That's Nirvana or the Kingdom of Heaven. As soon as one falls for thinking about it from 'my' point of view, one is in Samsara or Hell (the endless wheel of karmic action). Nirvana is Samsara.
_()_
Tony
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bee
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Post by bee on Mar 10, 2015 4:10:20 GMT
Well that's all there is.. Awareness
But in any moment is It awake or asleep?
(Mostly asleep)
Does It identify Itself as the unit or any situation?
(Usually yes)
When life gets somewhat more demanding does it become easier for awareness to buy into that story?
(Most certainly)
When we do relax into life we can sense we are not just this character and situation, a little like but crudely put, sitting there in a theater and being immersed into what is being acted out. It can be quite believable with a conducive environment and good acting to get caught up into what is playing out.
Isn't that what Awareness does with this real life play? (That we find ourselves, as the unit, in)
Using either pet or child as a misidentification of Awareness, 'Be kind to the inner child' is often quoted but it's still an investment.
A little like I purchase a new pet dog - the initial investment
I buy new bedding and toys
I get the pet desexed
I make sure the pet goes to the vet to have the required shots every year
I bathe it, give it monthly tablets, buy new collars and leads
I buy it a variation of food
All up it's quite a time and a monetary investment.
All the while I take it for walks
I play with it, train it, praise it and scold it
I feed it with marrow bones and cook them up and make a soup
Plus there's more and more total investment as time goes by adding incrementally everyday
Then add on the much larger and complex personal association, that of the emotional attachment because I have now turned that pet dog into "mine"
Are we as the egoic unit much different to our pet?
We invest so much more of our self with each outlay plus we then add every fun time also into our investment. Every bit mounts up including all the sorrows.
So that's like we do with our unit, Awareness invests in what It sees as Itself and becomes mistakenly identified that It is in fact the unit (Its pet).
So by trusting 'Life', Awareness can, in the present moment, awaken to 'All That It Is and Isn't' rather than any selected portions.
kolomo you guys is a great term and if you change your post all good, I have a copy of the original anyway as I don't type directly into the forum.
Had an issue with this post's spacings as was transposed from what I type into using laptop instead of phone, so in fixing I also modified the wording somewhat
Also I'll say I have first hand experience with the pet dog as now have very recently acquired two unwanted ones
As my investment in time, energy, and care increases every day it's now much harder to hand them back
The criteria was the first had to fit in with the stray cat that's now taken over this house or would hand her back
But she was obviously lonely so let's rip up almost everything on patio, cushions, shoes, etc
So then had a brain wave, took in a second unwanted dog on approval, and that calmed down the first, all OK I thought
But then one day where are they, nowhere to be found, had escaped from a really good 6' fence by digging under
This is acreage so it's a heck of a lot of fencing, and miles of bush, so where are they? Three hours later with neighbors help finally found both having the best time
Still I'm not that far gone in the personal investment arena so I'm going to hand one back as per the agreement I figured
It's amazing the parallels I saw playing out to what is the life we think we are in
Yep still have both, they are both females, one is 14 months the other 4 years, both desexed and micro chipped, and they do love each other dearly, unbelievable really
So that's life playing out, watching and being involved, and very very easy to become attached
I know I am attached to this body-mind-unit I term as me, just that now I can see it all for what it is
correction
Awareness is realizing It is attached to this body-mind-unit It terms as me, just that now Awareness can sometimes see it all for what it is
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Kolomo
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Post by Kolomo on Mar 14, 2015 15:48:56 GMT
Great posts and I like rereading them
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