tony
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Post by tony on Sept 22, 2015 12:45:46 GMT
Because I'm fussy about words and their use, instead of 'intellect' the cause may be better described as egoic reason. After all, intellect or reason is a faculty we humans are endowed with, and we use it to understand worldly phenomena and to send a man to the moon. Not until a man reaches the level of unconditional love towards other humans, there will be elements of egoic activity behind his 'choices' and behaviour. With unconditional love, the man is able to have good will and 'forgive them as they know not what they do'.
Using the analogy of temperature- one variable with an infinite range of states (from zero to the highest possible level). Similarly, the common variable is the Manifest/Creation, which is another name for God/the Whole. Everything happens within the Manifest (nothing can happen outside of the Whole): from planets to molecules, from inanimate to animate, from rocks to trees to amoebas, from wolves to sheep, from sinners to saints. George Soros and Mother Theresa are beings at different levels of the same scale. It's an impersonal phenomenon.
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Post by clouddust on Sept 25, 2015 0:17:34 GMT
I would simplify it even further; one serves themselves and the other serves God. In Jesus' words, "One cannot serve two masters."
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tony
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Post by tony on Sept 28, 2015 1:59:02 GMT
He also said "Forgive them, as they know not what they do".
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Post by clouddust on Oct 3, 2015 12:28:27 GMT
Yes, that's true. But they're two different phrases for two different circumstances. Which one do you want to discuss? |
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Post by forum22015 on Oct 3, 2015 23:19:46 GMT
Hello Everyone,
Although I may have one post left on the Gate I officially end yesterday but not through the Gate. A lot happened to me there and the final event was the Zen stick that ended my journey there. I'm invited to come back at a later date if i want but for now advised to take a break. I left heartbroken yesterday but I will re-cover in a little while. Right now, after dealing with DE (direct Experience so much) it feels intellectual here. So how am I to get back into this groove? Geesh what a journey.
Love,
Arlene
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tony
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Post by tony on Oct 4, 2015 13:17:07 GMT
Arlene, I can feel your heartbreak at the disappointment of not making it through the Gate. It can be very frustrating after so much effort and investment of time and energy. We have been learning from your journey and your courage and honesty in undertaking it. The best I can think of at the moment is to refer to comments/video by Fred Davis on 'who is coming to the enlightenment party?' [or something along those lines].
I hear you when you say "Right now, after dealing with DE (direct Experience so much) it feels intellectual here". The equivalent to DE here is to do our best to express in words what is going on within us at any point in time, prompted by the discussion and comments, but not assuming that we have the answer.
So, what do you know? If you look at what comes up at any moment and allow it to come and go, isn't that DE? When you sit down and have dinner, isn't that DE? When we think/feel that there is something else other than what is happening, that the solution to our suffering is outside of ourselves, we come out of DE. Have a read of the quotes by Wayne Liquorman and Jeff Foster. What are they pointing to?
Hope to hear more from you!
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Post by clouddust on Oct 13, 2015 23:09:40 GMT
Small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life and few find it.
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bee
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Post by bee on Oct 14, 2015 3:08:56 GMT
A rather funny way of looking at this-
We are on a journey to a particular destination, eg. to a friend's place who gave us sometime ago, what turned out to be, scant directions. So we are rather confused with exactly where we now are, and in believing we are heading along in the wrong direction, turn around and head straight back to where we have come from. We have no cell phone connection so in absolute confusion and frustration in completing the journey we just return to where it was we started from, one day hoping to be able to establish communication so we can once again set out and find our friend's place.
The narrow road we were taking, which we truly believed was incorrect, was in fact leading us directly to our intended destination; only thing being we found it but did not know.
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tony
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Post by tony on Oct 15, 2015 11:58:49 GMT
Bee, by what means can we tell that we are on the 'right' road? What is the point of reference from which one can come and go when searching for a place? How do we discover that 'the narrow road we were taking, which we truly believed was incorrect, was in fact leading us directly to our intended destination'? Who decided to start the search?
What is Jesus pointing to with "small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life and few find it"? Is the direction towards 'the meek shall inherit the earth' and 'unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven' or even 'whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.'?
Is it possible for us to investigate all of this without 'believing' in anything outside ourselves? What is the link between those questions and the Gateless Gate that Arlene is involved in?
One possible answer to the above questions is another question: "what's wrong with this present moment, unless you think about it?"
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bee
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Post by bee on Oct 16, 2015 21:17:32 GMT
"Bee, by what means can we tell that we are on the 'right' road? " What we found but did not know was not of being on the right physical road but our focus of being wherever we are when we implicitly trust this Present. Regardless whether we think we are on either the right or wrong road or path, whenever we are fully present to wherever we are or whatever we may be doing we are in perfect unison with What Is. My little story was describing a situation where people often believe they are on the wrong pathway in life, whereas in fact it is the correct one. The only thing wrong is we believe otherwise and so fight life as it is always the correct path as long as It is trusted. The "only" correct path is being totally in this Present regardless where physically that may be. So if we always choose to be fully Present to whatever it is that life holds we are always on the right path.  |
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Kolomo
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Post by Kolomo on Oct 17, 2015 2:29:23 GMT
Been reading along when I can, all that is said seems right on, but in the end, when everything is said in done, the following quote (in my mind) is all that we can say ---
“I do not know” is the only true statement the mind can make.” - Nisargadatta
I suppose we all have our different ways of recognizing, or at least trying see the freedom of ‘not knowing’ through ‘trusting awareness’ or meditation, enquiry or prayer. As mentioned, it seems like this is yet another angle on the gateless gate. There is no knowledge to be gained for there is nothing amiss just with the way things are.
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Post by clouddust on Oct 19, 2015 0:00:43 GMT
Jesus is not pointing to anything. He is the narrow road; the gate. "I don't know", is definitely the only true statement the mind can make - and the turning point toward surrender, because we realize our own mind is not the source. |
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tony
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Post by tony on Oct 19, 2015 21:08:13 GMT
It's interesting to note that we humans can say with great conviction ""I don't know", is definitely the only true statement the mind can make" and with equally great conviction say "Jesus is not pointing to anything. He is the narrow road; the gate.". Is it the same 'mind' making those statements? How would 'the mind' know that it doesn't know? Can 'the mind' make statements? Who or what is it that 'knows' or 'doesn't know'? and who or what 'knows' that "I don't know"?
Therefore (Clouddust), if you make a statement such as "Jesus...is the narrow road; the gate" how do you know that? Is it something you have read about or is it your direct experience? It's another way of investigating the validity of the proposition "I don't know", is definitely the only true statement the mind can make".
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Kolomo
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Post by Kolomo on Oct 23, 2015 3:25:52 GMT
I think it’s pretty obvious the mind doesn’t know. The mind is a conceptual instrument. We simply cannot know the source of any thought or concept because anything we think or ‘apperceive’ is really just another thought. That is why is probably often said that all knowledge is really mere vanity. From my perspective I kind of get where CD is coming from. “Jesus is not pointing to anything”; meaning knowledge is vanity. “The road is narrow”; meaning you must shed your vanities
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tony
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Post by tony on Oct 26, 2015 8:55:58 GMT
Comments prompted by the above discussion:
Questions: to whom/what is it obvious that the mind doesn't know? If it is that obvious, why do we still rely on the mind? Are there two entities (one which knows and one which doesn't)? The method of self-inquiry is used to explore that (i.e. Who am I?).
In regard to Jesus- According to the accounts in the four Gospels, Jesus talked/preached for 3 years to those whom were willing as well as those who were unwilling to hear his message. If he wasn't pointing to anything, what was he saying to them/us? The expression 'pointing to' does not imply only conveying knowledge/information, it suggests 'look that way, rather than this way' or 'if you do this, then...'; it takes out the sense of being prescriptive (e.g. you must do this, or else) and brings in the critical warning that 'the finger is only pointing to the moon', so don't get attached to the finger.
The interpretation that the narrow road means we must shed our vanities and attachments otherwise you can't get through the gate (e.g the rich merchant parable) is a very useful one on our journey. However, the assertion that "Jesus is the narrow road; the gate" may imply that Jesus (the man who was born and died) has become the finger itself, as against being the messenger of the Good News ("...why callest thou me good?[there is] none good but one, [that is], God..."). This emphasis on the messenger is common in most religious belief, especially where the scriptures are interpreted literally (fundamentalism). The Great Messengers (Krishna, Gautama, Jesus, Mohammed, Zarathustra, etc.) become idealized, made special and worshiped in their own right. Can Mohammed also be the narrow road? The more fundamentalist one becomes, the more one feels antagonistic towards other religious belief systems (e.g. mine is more true than yours). Millions have lost their lives in defense of those beliefs and in the name of those messengers.
When we agreed to have the title of this Forum "We are all IT" we also agreed that regardless of how we express our understanding, there is an equality, a commonality, a Oneness to our diversity. That is why Non-duality as a concept is inherently all inclusive. No need to mention God, Jesus or Gautama in appreciating "what's wrong with this Present Moment, if you don't think about it?"
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