What's beyond the walls? discussing aspects of existence

Hi Everyone,

Welcome Angel6, glad to have you with us!
I just read all these posts. 
I wish I could say more but just taking every thing in. You are a wonderful group.

Love,
Arlene

Hi members,

Nice to read your posts again and i see two threads here everything changes and what is the unchangeable?
Unchangeable is Awareness.
Everything changing: Awareness.

Namaste,
Arlene

Hi Angelsix, it's observations like the one you had that can start a life-ling inquiry into 'what's going on with the world?', 'what is real?'and many similar questions. It is a topic we started discussing a while ago, I recall, with your own observation that everything changes.

As a context to your question on the either/or situation, it's useful to make the simple and obvious point that everything changes. It can be easily seen intuitively and intellectually that it is the nature of the world to be in a constant state of change. We, as a body/mind, are the first and closest example of that. However, while it's easy to admit to the fact of a body and mind constantly changing, it may be not as easy to see that the sense of 'me-ness' also changes.

It's an important observation as it queries the experience of a self as a fixed unchanging observer who notices change 'out there' but assumes that it/self has not changed. Is it possible to say whether the world is changing and we notice or we change and the world changes as we do? Can we find the fixed point of reference by which we can tell the difference?

They are questions, I think, that initiate an examination based on actual experience. It brings in the age-old inquiry of 'who am I' and 'what is the world' and the connection between the two.

Angelsix, your observation that "it's self centered to image our control over anything since us, and all about us, is in constant flux" is a very neat way of saying what the Buddha discovered about the nature of this world, i.e. its impermanence and therefore that there is no fixed self. The idea or realization which follows about "our lack of control", is a fundamental insight into what is the reality of this world.

Meditation is a spiritual technology that clearly and unambiguously demonstrates the fact of impermanence and no fixed self. For example, just sit still without any preconceived ideas (expectations, judgments, etc.) about the events that arise before you (body sensations, sight, sound, etc. and mind activity) and simply become aware of what arises [like sitting in a train and letting the scenery go past). Do this long enough (at least 15-20 minutes) and what is experienced is that everything that arises (including all thoughts and feelings) comes from nowhere in each instant, or moment by moment. It can also be experienced that there is no gap between that awareness and what arises. There is only experience-ing, which combines the experience-r and the experience-d. Further, by this act of Witnessing, there is no point of reference by which to compare with anything else, because there is nothing else happening but that.

Try. Let me know what you think!

Kolomo, the use of a dualistic language (most if not all of them presuppose a subject and an object) can make it difficult to express clearly and unambiguously what is beyond the capacity of language to express. So these comments are made for the sake of clarity (we are endeavouring to express ourselves as clearly as possible from what we know).

To say "it [is] all just consciousness" and then conclude that "it is real from our conscious perspective but its not really real" may sound confusing. Is the 'one' who is making those statements real or not? That is, does he belong to the class of those who dream [therefore anything that is said is inside the dream] or is he outside the dreaming and can observe/speak from an 'awakened' state? Who, after all, is speaking?

I would say that "when one finally sees this indisputable fact" it is not so much an 'enlightening' experience, it is Enlightenment (the Light of Consciousness shines). In the same way that when awake one can recall and talk about having dreams, so can one accept one's capacity for being deluded about identity with a dreamed image; there is no problem with going to sleep and dream. Similarly, when it is seen clearly that the Earth revolves around the Sun, it's OK to use the words 'sunrise' and 'sunset' without being confused that they represent reality. One more analogy is the old one used by Ramana Maharshi, with the rope and the snake. Once it is seen that the rope was mistaken for a snake, the perception spell is broken and its mechanism is revealed. In all cases, seeing what's false is enough. It's not so much that "This whole world, ourselves and everything in it is nothing but a dream", but that "I" perceive it to be substantial, self-existing and independent of Experiencing. Experiencing is Consciousness/Mind/God/What Is/All There Is/Reality.

After the spell is broken, nothing changes other than it is clear that what was taken as reality is only an aspect of Reality, i.e. the delusion also happens within Reality. Then, there is no gap between what I am experiencing and what is being experienced. Objects 'out there' are seen to be 'in here', and space is not a measure of distance, but the invisible, formless Context that holds them all.

Good analysis! It comes from a level of consciousness that has taken the 'red pill', or has seen that the 'blue pill' perspective is false.

I would say that 'Truth–Awareness-Reality' are none other than the 'ceaselessly changing relative world'. Change is the dynamic, perceivable aspect of Reality, un-perceivable and beyond concepts. The two are not separate, but are referred to as aspects of the One No-thing. The great traditions muse similar symbols:

In Christianity: the Father (ineffable, transcendent, changeless) and the Son/Holy Ghost (knowable, immanent, in action);
In Buddhism: Emptiness/Dharmakaya (empty of any attributes, a No-thing) and Form/Nirmanakaya (forms, perceivable, impermanent);
In Hinduism: Brahman/Purusha (The Absolute) and Shiva/Prakriti (the changing material world)

One aspect includes the other. Form is none other than Emptiness, Emptiness is none other than Form. In Zen Buddhism "not one, not two" (Shunryu Suzuki Roshi). The Father and the Son are one. Brahman is the world. Non-duality.

Therefore the form, unit (Tony/Kevin/etc.), whether clear or confused, deluded or enlightened, is an aspect (like everything else) of That. After all, suns and planets, rocks, trees, amoebas, fish, mammals...sentient beings (from babies to adults), are all creations and reflections (Indra's net of jewels) of That.

It follows that That is speaking as and through each sentient form. It also follows that there is nothing wrong with this (and every) moment. Perfection is in the imperfections. The phenomenon of self, the sense of separation, the ego perspective, gives the impression that there is something wrong, and the hope that it may get fixed at a future time. The Truth includes the proposition that "...consciousness [is]... not really real but not really not real."