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Post by angelssix on Mar 21, 2015 19:44:17 GMT
Hi all and thank you for the welcome. I've been busy but just checking in. Thanks clouds for the welcome. Where'd you get that name, are you spacey? Just kidding. Well the self is important and all I can see so I accept that's all there is but sometimes I sense something greater and bigger so that's the interest in exploring. So I'll ask the question, what is this sense I kind of feel around me. I know makes the difference between opinion and conviction. So I'll accept both. How's that for a beginning discussion. |
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Post by clouddust on Mar 22, 2015 0:20:01 GMT
Hi angel6,
Ha ...you have a sense of humor. That's good. I would say that sense you feel around you is God. My question back to you is: How can you sense something around you, separate from you and "bigger" than you if all you believe is what you see; primarily your self? Good to keep the discussion going. CD
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Post by clouddust on Mar 22, 2015 16:46:18 GMT
Hi Kolomo, I think that's fine and whatever is best. Thanks again. CD |
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Post by angelssix on Mar 22, 2015 16:56:16 GMT
ok with me
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tony
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Post by tony on Mar 22, 2015 22:24:12 GMT
Hopefully this won't be considered flippant, but has anyone ever seen, shaken hands with, had a cup of coffee and a good chat with God? Does anyone's existence need to be proven by resorting to an 'other', a creator?
So, does "...there’s got to be something more than just this" point to an actual reality of 'something more' or is it reflecting a belief, a concept of 'this' and 'other than this'. Perhaps the question could be "there’s got to be something more/other than just what I apprehend with my senses and mind consciousness". Can that be investigated by whatever means we have available as human beings. If yes, what are those means and 'paths' that could answer whether or not there's got to be something more. Can we start with any method other than present, direct experience?
Open for discussion!
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Post by angelssix on Mar 22, 2015 23:03:36 GMT
Hello everybody and Tony ('me'). That's my point all I see is myself and that's why I only believe in what I can see, mainly the self. But admittedly it feels a little bleak at times and that's why I explore. So what is this feeling or deep sense I get sometimes if all there is, is 'me' open for discussion, too.
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Post by clouddust on Mar 22, 2015 23:41:06 GMT
Hi Tony, I don't think you're flippant at all. You have intelligence and I think all input is great, especially yours. Ok,... now, neither can you say you've had coffee with the Buddha or Krishna or any of the others, right? How do you know they existed or their words are worth remembering? I don't see the gravitational pull or my heart valve opening when I'm running, but they are there. I don't see sadness, grief or joy, but they're real. I guess my point is not everything is explained with our own understanding. As you know my new (very new) faith seems to let me 'see' things differently and I remember a neighbor of mind use to say to me, "Lean not on your own understanding." Some things are just beyond our finite minds. So that's that point. I wanted to say to angels6 that what he feels could be something like I witness on my job as a nurse in a big city. Sometimes I see the most traumatic events and yet there's peace in the people involved. I ask them, "How," and they tell me faith. I've seen the power of prayer. I can't touch it, don't understand it but I sense something bigger than myself. So that's that point. To Kolomo, Jesus says, (I've checked it), The kingdom of heaven is at hand. It is already here. So what do you think of that statement? I'm still figuring it out. I think this will be a good discussion. CD
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tony
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Post by tony on Mar 23, 2015 4:31:15 GMT
An observation: this way of discussing and conversing is fine and it works, but it's also slow and laborious, because for every expression, thought and idea we put forward there are various takes coming from our different perspectives, which can make us go down different lines of inquiry. A more effective process, because it's interactive, is known as sat-sang, which means the company of the "highest truth," or the company of a guru, or the company with an assembly of persons who listen to, talk about, and assimilate the Truth. Sat-sang is best held face to face in a 'place' where people bring their curiosity, innocence and best condition of mind and body to inquire into the Truth. I don't think it's a practical approach at this stage, but I'm mentioning it to describe the type of environment that is most conducive to open inquiry. Sometimes, just sitting in silence together is an effective form of communication!
The paradox of understanding and communicating on subjects such as these, was put by Jesus as "unless you become like children, you cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven". By suggesting an inquiry by 'present, direct experience' I meant bringing an attitude that 'a child' has to the world as he's getting to know it, as yet unaffected by conditioning and intellectual analysis. Can one know what God is without having read the Scriptures? It's more like that instant of wordless wonder at seeing a sunset, before thought comes to label it; or the spontaneous hug you give to someone you love (like your favourite pet); or the timeless knowing that I am alive. We don't know that through information, by reading, imagining or thinking about it, but by direct experience.
Open for ongoing discussion!
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bee
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Post by bee on Mar 23, 2015 5:29:04 GMT
"So I'll ask the question, what is this sense I kind of feel around me." A really good question it is angelssix. I believe most do feel something greater than themselves but for whatever reason they do not wish to look too deeply or ask themselves too many questions about it. Many prefer to believe one of the many doctrines that have mostly been around for ages and usually what they were brought up with, while some believe none of that applies to themselves. Ask yourself this question- What it is in your life that is always there, regardless of what you are doing, thinking, feeling, and also when you are not really doing anything except breathing and sleeping, what is it if it's not you, or just you as the ego, that is sensing you? We all tend to say, I am something, eg. I am relaxed, happy, nervous, sad; I am thinking that... , I am feeling this way... , I am doing whatever it is I am doing. Are all these differences what we truly are? Are we what we say we are when we say I am...? Unwittingly, do we not associate ourself with the acts borne out by our thinking and then saying I am that ......? (I am therefore whatever I happen to be in that particular moment) Therefore one moment I am happy, then the next I am sad. So what am I really? But what it is that escapes most everyone's awareness is what could easily be the most obvious, well it should be the most obvious but it is mostly not ever recognised. (Maybe it's not recognised because it is so much in our face) It is the one thing that just happens to be common regardless whatever it is that we are doing, thinking, or feeling. Can you sense what this may be? What is it that always is? What is unchanging and always constant? The one thing that is always common, regardless whether you are thinking you could be the president or are feeling and being a rock star, or even being aspleep and dreaming?  |
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Post by clouddust on Mar 23, 2015 22:53:11 GMT
I was trying to quote Angels6 remark about all changing in his life when I think I deleted it. Sorry Angels, please write back with your answer. So sorry, CD
But I wanted to remark on what he said about all is changing. Everything does change in this world, but there must be some consistency somewhere, don't you think? If not here, then where? Bee, Since you mentioned to look for what is consistent, then what is your constant? Maybe we can get the discussion going in that direction. What do you think?
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Post by clouddust on Mar 23, 2015 23:48:42 GMT
Sorry Tony, didn't mean to ignore your comment. Being like children is an excellent example of experiencing God. It makes a lot of sense, but a question: How do you think little children are, that makes them a good example of this? I, too, believe that direct experience is the best way to know God. A person can know a lot, intellectually, but if their heart (meaning spirit side) is not right, or on track, then what they know is practically useless. In fact Jesus goes after the Pharisees for just this reason.
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bee
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Post by bee on Mar 23, 2015 23:52:28 GMT
angelssix's deleted post,
Quote:
"Hey, you guys this is fun....I'm not sure what's constant in my life, since all
keeps changing. What is constant in yours. Anyone who can ans."
clouddust I didn't want to put in answers to my question as I really cannot pass the
experience of It on, It is for all a self-discovery, at times I have experienced the
unchangeable therefore I know It and I have recollections of It. Even though I know
what It is it's a very different story to experiencing It, as experiencing is always
so dependent on my allowing.
I sense the best way always is for those looking to be able to find It themselves,
maybe though with a little help from others, hence the wish to open up a discussion
as to what everyone feels It is.
It always Is, forever and unchanging, and whenever I more fully allow It life
unfolds with a magnificent brilliance not normally noticed.
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tony
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Post by tony on Mar 24, 2015 10:46:09 GMT
Hi everyone, there is so much being raised which is very good, but I must admit the number of various strands are getting a bit complex to follow in a neat way, so what follows picks up on a few...
Angelsix- impressed by the simple and profound observation that all keeps changing!
When I look as dispassionately as I can (i.e. in Meditation) at what is going on, I become like a little child. Everything is Accepted without judgement (neither accepted nor rejected). That condition of mind, child-like, is most conducive to be self-less, i.e. experiencing without a 'me' interfering. The sense of 'me' arises and is appreciated ‘‘as–it-is’.
This self-less condition is in my view common to all the great traditions and repeatedly pointed to by the great Teachers and Masters. As far as I know, it is 'at hand', part and parcel of what I do.
As I have discovered, it’s a precondition to unbiased investigation, a critical element in investigating ‘who/what am I’. In that condition I am faced with facts [events, phenomena, etc. not subject to belief, opinion and personal points of view]. One of them is the impermanence of everything that occurs in my experiencing. As bee noted in looking for what is Constant, facts may not be recognized because they are so much in our face, right under our noses, as it were.
As we go about living our everyday life it may well escape our attention that nothing remains the same even for an instant (as they say in Zen, there is an infinity of instants in a snap of the fingers). It may be a bit easier to see impermanence in the forms around us (objects and people), but it is usually harder to notice that the same applies to our 'self', the 'me' which we believe to be a fixed entity (inside our heads).
The innate innocence that is in all of us (no matter how old) does not add the extra 'me-focus' to experiencing: it feels like it is timeless. It is possible to know that as an experience in the middle of life's activities. A reliable sign is that one complains less about what is happening, becoming more philosophical about what life brings, better at getting through difficult circumstances, and managing the 'bad' days. One accepts that 'shit' happens, good or bad.
As the ox-herder discovered, ordinary life is itself Nirvana when lived as if every moment is as important as the next. The very act of just eating, breathing, thinking, feeling this and that emotion, without willfully accepting or rejecting, acknowledging that nothing lasts, that life and death are Life itself, is It.
_()_
Tony
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Post by clouddust on Mar 24, 2015 23:43:24 GMT
Hi all,
I always said, "Experience is the best teacher." But experience of a human origin is just that; a human experience. Human perspectives, emotions, feelings, circumstances are personal, therefore limited by our own interpretation and, as you point out, fleeting. Is there anything that is constant?
I know we have a lot happening on this post. Do you want to create another post or sub-post? Thanks, Bee, for finding Angels post. |
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bee
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Post by bee on Mar 25, 2015 5:45:07 GMT
Tony I like what you post especially the ox-herder's discoveries.
Yes it's true because it is, that is everything is forever changing, but we also are as the ego mind-body or unit as Fred calls it.
We most noticeably do age, very predominantly just after our birth and in the later years. Our features change, our weight and fitness levels, and most everything also constantly in a state of flux.
So not only is everything changing outside of ourselves but we are too.
The last paragraph of your post should give a hint to others of what 'It Is' that 'Is' always and unchangeable.
And usually unknown to our ego mind-body we are That.
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