Kolomo
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Post by Kolomo on Nov 22, 2015 18:08:42 GMT
Perhaps I take on what could be considered a more radical view but I don’t believe it is. Who is to say which moral compass points to the path of redemption? Who is to say what is right or wrong? Yes, I agree that is does appear that certain behaviors are more conducive to harmonious living but, I feel, if you look closely right and wrong is often defined by the cultural context of a society. Perhaps, many who have joined so called terrorist groups feel they have been wronged by western society and some may even feel they are on the path of salvation. I would venture that judgments of right and wrong are primarily related to the safety and preservation of group defined norms.
I see the real issue to be the identification with our separate “I” concept. Just think; if we were not bound to this notion of being a separate individual there would no longer be thoughts of pride, greed, envy and all the other monstrosities of egoism. There would be no need for nationalism or religious righteousness. There is nothing to be gained in any form of true spiritual conquest, only the stripping away of all the falsities of the conceptual I. This inevitably leads to seeing that everything is in perfection just as it is. It is only the radical I-notion that is in a state of constant resistance that see things differently because it is patently untrue.
Anyway, these are some thoughts as of now. If I do not post again soon I wish a sense of ease to flow to all during the holiday – well at least in the US, I am not sure you heathens in other countries celebrate that one fabled day we refrained from killing off the native population.
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bee
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Post by bee on Nov 22, 2015 19:50:06 GMT
The whole contains all the parts, and identification with any part can make us blind to the whole, which is the Oneness of all creation.
But we live in this land and this life of uncountable contrasts, so do any of us think it's a mistake or just by accident that we do?
If we answer no to that question then next question to ask ourselves is - why?
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Post by clouddust on Nov 23, 2015 23:04:27 GMT
Yes, Kolomo, the separate 'I', me-centered person is full of greed, envy, pride, ego, but it is the way it is. The human heart is full of such things. Why?
I would say it is human nature.
Separate 'I' with dependence on a God who is all teaching and all loving, is a different kind of person. Though still with the fallen nature, it is a person who recognizes weakness and seeks strength in dependence.
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Post by clouddust on Nov 23, 2015 23:10:08 GMT
And Bee, I would add: When we think we are gods, when we think we are 'the whole,' alone,... then we are blinded to the parts of which we are.
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Kolomo
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Post by Kolomo on Nov 24, 2015 4:12:31 GMT
“But we live in this land and this life of uncountable contrasts, so do any of us think it's a mistake or just by accident that we do?”
I think you brought up a question that gets asked a lot in various ways. I remember reading a similar question asked to Nisargadatta. I don’t remember his exact response but I bet it was along the lines of saying, ‘The one believing to be an individual living in a world of changeable forms is a phantom having a dream and thinking its reality’. Isn’t it the least bit suspect that we draw steadfast conclusions based on apparent biochemical impulses in pitch dark areas of cranial grey matter? As often been said we really have no idea what really exist other than to say I am.
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Kolomo
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Post by Kolomo on Nov 25, 2015 4:20:03 GMT
that would be good, I definitely have my favs
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Kolomo
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Posts: 182
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Post by Kolomo on Nov 25, 2015 16:26:35 GMT
Hi CD
I don’t feel human nature is ‘evil’ at all, rather in its true essence it is one with pure love. In the words of Rumi, “We are born of love; Love is our mother”. But I think we get caught up in thinking ego based thoughts is our identity and being that they are without any true substance of their own we can become fearful and needy within this false identity. I think in the end we are saying the same things through different approaches
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Post by clouddust on Nov 28, 2015 12:13:05 GMT
'morning all,
Angel you bring up a good point. Human nature is evil and demonstrated throughout the ages. Love is a choice and we only can love because we are loved first!
Evil is something we are, not necessarily something we do, and turning from love and the truth is a choice we make and it is a choice not made out of love.
I also like your desire to start a separate heading for different teachers, to learn and compare because it would be beneficial to see them listed out especially when so many are referred to on this forum.
I'm looking forward to further discussions.
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Post by clouddust on Nov 28, 2015 12:17:00 GMT
I see Kolomo has already started a new heading. "The Different Teachers," Great!!
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tony
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Post by tony on Dec 14, 2015 10:56:39 GMT
Hello everyone, back to our discussions after a bit of a break. I tried to re-insert myself in the flow of the topics, but it's taken some effort on my part to return to a discussion frame of mind.
I think we had touched on the subject of teachers a while ago (Angelsix as I recall had issues with teachers' trustworthiness). An initial observation about the new topic "the different teachers" is that, while it is aligned to "the different paths", it highlights the differences rather than the essence of their activity. Are they different because they say substantially different things, or have different ways of saying the same thing, or because they have spoken at different historical times and cultures OR because each of us perceives them as different (this one I can agree with, that other one I can't...).
Perhaps the topic could be "The Teacher" and "The Path", pointing to the fundamental role of giving a message, pointing to and transmitting the Truth, linking the Ineffable No-thing to the world of form. Who then is a Teacher? What qualities does he/she have? Does it have to be another human being? Is life as it happens our only Teacher? Is a Teacher linked to a Path or Way which allows for our realization of the Truth?
What have been our experiences of meeting a Teacher (if any)? Where did we get our 'spiritual' insights from? Looking at the topic this way, can allow a deeper exploration of the Teacher/Path phenomenon that is such a strong feature of all major religious traditions.
I'll give my views along those lines in another post. Do you agree with that line of inquiry?
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tony
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Post by tony on Dec 14, 2015 12:24:27 GMT
On the subject of good and evil. I am wondering what is the experiential basis for statements such as "Human nature is evil and demonstrated throughout the ages." and "Evil is something we are, not necessarily something we do...". My '5 year old' mind boggles at the implication of that. In a sense, I'm left speechless at the assertion that I am inherently evil and that someone can say it as if it is universally agreed and experienced by everyone. Is that so in your experience?
The direct evidence I have is that I can make and have made mistakes, that I have 'sinned' [missed the mark], that I have felt lost, confused and angry and reacted to life's circumstances. Out of anger, shame, emotional and mental confusion, I am well capable of acts that I would later regret. Haven't we all done that, been there? But to say that my response to life comes out of a nature which is evil in the first place, pretty much condemns me to doing evil as my default response. Is that a fact in your experience?
The evidence that people have done atrocious acts to each other throughout the ages has to be matched to the evidence that they have also done acts of loving-ness and showed good will towards each other. The more significant implication, though, of 'human nature is evil' is that even a one day old human must be evil. How did that come about? What is it that created that state of affairs? I don't recall choosing to be born evil.
By the way, one of the most intriguing stories in the Bible is that of Job: "one who feared God and turned away from evil" but "there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them"... "And the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?”...and allows Satan to tempt him and test his faith by taking Job's wealth and kill all of his children and servants. After many horrific trials Job breaks down and curses God, who eventually restores all that he has lost. Worth reading and pondering on the whole story. How is that as a view of good and evil, and where evil comes from?
Anyway, it's a big and difficult topic! What would be desirable, for the sake of honest discussion, is to look inside ourselves and examine our own lives so far to find evidence of whether 'humans are evil' or 'born of Love'.
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Kolomo
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Post by Kolomo on Dec 17, 2015 4:20:39 GMT
I just watched this and thought it kind of related to the current discussion. Briefly, however, I feel people appear to do weird and horrible things because they don't know who they really are. The conceptual-I lives in the constant terror of its obliteration and meaninglessness and will do anything to associate itself with something significant. All manner of acts are committed as we aimlessly run around trying to bandage over this fearful ignorance. Sometimes, as sick as it may seem, it means choppin' heads off.
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Post by clouddust on Apr 17, 2016 17:11:39 GMT
Trials and tests develop perseverance. Perseverance completes the work of maturity and completeness. Maturity and completeness strengthen trust and reliance.
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