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Post by clouddust on Aug 10, 2015 13:21:32 GMT
Hi Tony, Thank you for the welcome. Always a pleasure to discuss topics. I'm glad we agree there is growth in suffering. Of course, given the fact that suffering can vary in degrees; is circumstantial as well as personal, I can not agree that suffering ceases when one is on a genuine spiritual path. What would be the purpose of spiritual growth through suffering if it ceased just when growth was about to happen? Learning in suffering is a condition of life in this world, so like life, it does not stop until we die. No one wants to suffer, but it is essential in character building, a test of faith and reliance on God. The lives of the saints are a good portrayal of this. Avoidance of suffering does cause pain, like your example of a toothache, but (to take it up a notch) the loss of a loved one, friend, child, job or a natural disaster, cannot be avoided. Suffering teaches us humility and we must ' go into' the loss and not avoid it. The pain is real whether or not we attempt to avoid it.
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Kolomo
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Post by Kolomo on Aug 12, 2015 1:34:00 GMT
Yah, what you said sounds about right to me.
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tony
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Post by tony on Aug 12, 2015 10:31:19 GMT
Clouddust, conscious, awake 'growth' starts only when what was felt to be suffering becomes living ordinary life as it comes moment after moment. Instead of complaining about it, wanting to avoid it, calling it good and bad, etc. one lives it as divine life, with Faith that it all comes from God (What Is, All There Is, Life, the Absolute, the Source, Love, all forms and beings). That's what the moral of the story of Job, in my understanding. Irrespective of what our minds (thought patterns, beliefs, concepts, etc.) tell us, there is only One No-thing going on, only one Reality. We are all living it Right Now.
It is essential therefore to distinguish between circumstances (where do they come from, anyway?) and how we respond to them, e.g. physical pain can be accepted more readily when one does not blame anything for it. Only when one surrenders to God's Will the spiritual path gets on solid ground. What seemed to be wrong and unjust, etc. now is accepted as life itself happening. You know then that God is and always will be with you. Because It is you!
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Post by clouddust on Aug 12, 2015 12:06:19 GMT
Yes, I agree with what you say: acceptance, divine life, surrender, the present moment, and I would add, from the end of your comment; You know then that God is with you, Because it is God!
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bee
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Post by bee on Aug 12, 2015 21:00:01 GMT
SUFFERING Is just one of the many paintings on the canvas of life and what is painted is often not unlike the works of art by a master. Each gives rise to our emotions. Our Totalness, being the medium upon which the scene is painted as well as the scene, encompasses all equally regardless the gravity of what is depicted. It Is as happy with adorable kittens or the majesty of Archangels as It is with a Christ nailed to the cross. One may ask, why or how could this be? Because the one asking is not an isolated one but One with All there is, and that Totality is the Love that allows all scenes to be painted upon It. Proof! Do we need proof of this? Just look around at life, there is the evidence to show that this is so. But our resistance to any painting delivers the same result as that of the critic, we find fault, and in that very act of finding fault is the disconnect from It, or from the Love that welcomes the art, from the sincere appreciation of the scene regardless what it contains or depicts. So by not loving All of life's art we are unwittingly in a land of believing we are separated from this very canvas of life, which is also what we are, therefore we are trying to disconnect from what we are. When we do this pain ensues. It is not unlike the newborn being separated from the mum. However, the baby still cries in her mother's arms but she instinctively knows and feels the love contained in those arms and breasts. When we as mortals can know the Love that supports us then we start to know that this Love is not separate, It is not foreign, It Is what we are. All scenes are different but they are still painted upon Us, and when we can love them regardless what emotions they give rise to, we find something quite remarkable, we find we are much, much more than the painting of that scene that holds those (believed unwanted) emotions, we find, and also then know that we are the embodiment of that Love.
The breathtaking scene that can take our breath away that we stop to view while driving, we believe it's the splendor from the very top of a range that we see that moves our heart. Or the way that small puppy tilts her cute little head and fixes her loving eyes upon our face that gives rise to our emotions of love, we firmly believe it's the puppy doing that, don't we?
They are our excuse to feel what we are. Conversely, labelling an unwanted is our excuse to feel what we are not.
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tony
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Post by tony on Aug 13, 2015 14:05:58 GMT
We each have a way of expressing what we know or have intuited. Here is another voice:
PERHAPS, in the context of a story, structured by systems of belief, organised by the restless mind into some kind of sense, suffering that lingers is not so useful. But suffering, in any story, usually changes; wait around long enough, and everything changes. No matter how involving and intense the story of your life seems to be, that story - those feelings - those events, those others whom you struggle to interact with - they are not your sum total. You are all of it, and none of it; life is its own beneficiary; great pain and delicious pleasure are the same thing. No matter what seems to be happening, even if it seems to be happening to you and you alone, is just what must happen. Your life, with all its resistance, all the wrong thinking, all those errors you wish had never happened, is perfect, blessed and whole. There is nothing wrong with you. There is nothing wrong. Ever. From 'Stop seeking and relish it' by Suzanne Foxton
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Kolomo
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Post by Kolomo on Aug 13, 2015 14:24:35 GMT
I wrote this just before seeing Tony's post
If I may interpret bee’s eloquent post in my own thoughts, it would be say that suffering is sign that we are in resistance to what is, or in other words, resistant to God’s will. From my point of view, the opportunity that suffering may afford is not really to build character but rather to see the identification our separate individual self is a limited view. Of course, we are probably talking about the same thing for what is meant by building character could very well entail transcending it.
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Post by clouddust on Aug 14, 2015 12:22:53 GMT
Yes, Kolomo, I agree (with at least part of it); how would we know there was anything to transcend if we had no measuring device. In other words: suffering contrasted against contentment (any other word of description to counter suffering would be sufficient) is a measurement of contrast.
If there is nothing wrong, ever, how can anything be right? In regard to above thought: how do we measure 'wrong' if there's no 'right' to measure against? ...unless there's no 'right' either.
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Kolomo
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Post by Kolomo on Aug 15, 2015 22:10:53 GMT
Maybe transcend was not quite the right word - but yes, I agree that we are only able to perceive through measuring, comparing and contrast. You cannot have black without white but how could either one exist without the unbound essence by which all things unfold? It seems to me that everything we think or perceive can only appear through this essence or presence. Perhaps it could be said that the infinite appears to us as the finite. So to get back to what I think was the topic; does suffering build character? Who is it that suffers or has character? Isn’t it just the finite mask of the infinite? It appears we get lost in the words and concepts of the mask and not see that it is all the grand play of the infinite.
As I reread the posts I realized that I side stepped the right and wrong issue. I feel that right and wrong only exist in this finite, conceptual plane of consciousness. They are like sub-plots playing out just as they should relative to whatever their context. All of these stories with their various sub-plots and characters are in essence plays of the infinite consciousness, at least, that is how I see it.
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tony
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Post by tony on Aug 18, 2015 11:34:27 GMT
Hi all, I will be away for the next 10 days (including a 7 day Zen retreat in the country) and will not be able to log in easily. So, a short post (outlined in sequential points), inspired by all the posts we have exchanged over time.
(i) All I have and all I know at any given moment is what comes to 'me' as experience. (ii) In that sense there is nothing other than 'me': no God, no other. (iii) An 'experience' I have is that of No-thing, a part of me, I could say, that cannot be seen or experienced as a perceivable object. (iv) That part I call 'God'. (v) I, as 'me', cannot experience It because It is at the back, as it were, of my capacity to perceive it. (vi) Because of that, It has no dimension, no attributes in space or time. It is like Space, boundless (beyond thinking). (vii) I cannot find any gap or separation between 'me',as I exist in body and mind, and 'That', 'God'. (viii) No-thing is Here as this thing is here, simultaneously.
Therefore, it is clear, a demonstrable experience in Stillness, that "I" is 'I'. That is what I call Love.
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Kolomo
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Post by Kolomo on Aug 18, 2015 18:59:59 GMT
The retreat sounds nice! Nice points that deserve several read-overs My ability to participate is greatly reduced since returning to work but maybe its a retreat in its own way
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Post by clouddust on Aug 19, 2015 13:30:14 GMT
On separateness: The other day at the museum of Fine Art, I had an insight. As I looked at the artwork hanging on the wall in this massive, vault-like room, hushed in low light and expensive carpeting, I admired the creativity and considered the message of the image. I marveled at the artist's work. I was not the artist. The artist, the painting and myself were separate. My thoughts on this particular piece were my thoughts but they were in response to what I saw. No dimension, no boundary in space and time, the thoughts are freely evolving without separation.
But, I am not the artist; not the creator. And, my admiration is in part due to the acknowledgement I couldn't create an image like this.
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Post by clouddust on Aug 19, 2015 13:36:01 GMT
Suffering builds character several ways: Reliance, strength and experience. The "Grand Play of the Infinite," may be to grow us up. Mask or not, all experience is beneficial to us and to others.
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Kolomo
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Post by Kolomo on Aug 22, 2015 15:41:04 GMT
It seems to me that ‘building character’ is an act of adding or refining a self-concept. Certainly, there is nothing wrong with this but, in my view, concepts have nothing to do in the recognition of our nature. In fact, they have the opposite effect. We become caught up judging and subsequent emotional reactions. ‘Who is right? Who is wrong? I should have not done this or be like that.’ What we are cannot be explained or understood conceptually. In a way, we exist prior to any conceptual thought in the very nonjudgmental, non-descriptive vibrancy of consciousness. Concepts such as the ‘suffering character’ lead away from this simple recognition.
Awhile back I summarized a chapter on one of Wei Wu Wei’s books. Maybe this relates to this discussion.
“Every conceivable thing that our senses and mind cognizes is exactly an appearance in consciousness that is interpreted in space and time as something that exist externally. Simultaneously, that which cognizes it assumes that it is the subject and separate from what is cognized. The whole thing is an act of clownery. But as long as these assumptions subsist the correlated assumption of bondage and the painful sensations accompanying it remain intact. Release from these assumption can only be obtained by comprehending their falsity. Once fully realized the psychological elements of bondage are severed, only the conditioning occasioned by that bondage remains. Like all conditioning it will dissolve through the process of de-conditioning which consist of establishing the concept of ‘appearances’ in place of the concept of ‘reality’.”
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Post by clouddust on Aug 23, 2015 15:14:15 GMT
Hi
What if suffering were not a concept? How would you "condition," and/or "de-condition," suffering?
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