tony
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Post by tony on May 2, 2015 0:37:08 GMT
The reason why I suggested to capitalize certain words is to avoid the confusion of what words point to what meaning. So, as bee is pointing out, Love means the Whole (as in 'God is Love'), Creation itself, but love points to a state of mind, an emotion or energy that comes and goes (I can love someone one day and not another). Same for hate. Therefore Love (God, etc.) includes love & hate (and every pair of opposites).
That distinction is crucial and of the essence in discussing these matters. It's not a matter of grammar or spelling. It's understanding what we are talking about. There needs to be clarity of thought and of the concepts we use, otherwise the conceptual aspect takes over and we find ourselves playing with words. There is a risk that we 'copy' concepts we have heard or read about, rather than coming from our own innate experience of What Is, Reality.
_()_
Tony
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Post by clouddust on May 3, 2015 19:19:05 GMT
Tony,
In careful consideration to not mesh word meaning, I have to ask:
When your wife, or children say they love you, do you ask them if that's love with a capital "L" or a small "l"?
Love is love: consistent, constant and unchanging. And difficult!
That's why I enjoy the teachings of Jesus; because the simple descriptions are without confusion.
CD
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tony
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Post by tony on May 4, 2015 5:30:27 GMT
Clouddust, I don't ask my wife, children and friends that question because it would be asked in the inappropriate context. We, on this Forum, are considering the use and meaning of those words for the sake of clarity and also for the sake of Truth. We communicate with each other using symbols in a language (English) through letter-writing. Too often, in my experience, we mean different things by the same symbols (that's the real tower of Babel). Because of that, we are also prone to understand different things from the same sentences in the Scriptures (one reason why there are so many different denominations and belief systems).
I am not dismissing that we, as human beings, can love each other, but we can also hate each other. Where does hate comes from? In my experience love and hate are values along the one emotive scale. I don't know human love (at least mine) to be either consistent, constant or unchanging. That emotion is as far from God's Love as heaven is from hell. No comparison can be made. It is naive to equate them.
Jesus taught to 'love thy neighbour as thyself'. In my understanding, that is Unconditional Love. It means there is no separation between you and your neighbour. That love is then Love. Very few humans are capable of it, the majority (including me) are not, or at least not consistently. Why? The self-centered view creeps in and I am likely to love my neighbour with conditions attached.
_()_
Tony
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tony
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Posts: 172
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Post by tony on May 4, 2015 8:12:44 GMT
Mentioning Unconditional Love reminded me of how I came to experienced it. It was my last pet dog (the type who looks after sheep and chickens; he died two years ago) who demonstrated it in such a clear way that left me in no doubt that it was Unconditional. When it happened I can describe it as hitting me in the Heart, silent and powerful. I knew he could have given his life for me and I for him. No sense of separation. I have heard similar experiences from quite a few people, as I'm sure we all have. That's reminding me of a documentary 'The parrots of Telegraph Hill' (somewhere in San Francisco), where a man exchanges what feels like Unconditional love with a parrot who is dying. Beautiful and unforgettable. In my experience some animals can exhibit that capacity as much as humans can.
There are many examples of It, of course. Mothers and fathers towards their children (no matter what), people who risk their lives to help others, giving of oneself without expectations of gain, forgiving even though one has been hurt, turning the other cheek, and many others.
Good to hear from others about their experiences on this topic.
_()_
Tony
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Post by clouddust on May 4, 2015 15:30:06 GMT
Hi, agreed that pets teach us what we have long ago complicated. They leave an empty space when they depart from us.
Love the animals!
The point I'm making is: to call love different from Love is redundant. In its purest form, from God, it is made impure through our manifestation/definition.
I understand that you are making a definitive decision to use capitals, but that doesn't change the value placed on love because it is from God.
Unconditional love, as in "love neighbor as self," is impossible without knowing, first, the love that comes from God.
The emotive scale is us: our experiences, desires, positions in life, etc but God's love never changes.
One nature, one source, one reason; Love, then, is non-dual.
Ok, I just wanted to clarify my non-duality position on the subject Words are important, so I wanted to be more specific.
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tony
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Post by tony on May 4, 2015 23:46:52 GMT
Our use of language is getting a bit tricky! Again, we are not playing with words or definitions, but the reality they point to.
Nevertheless, if love (the emotion/feeling we have towards another being) comes from God, where does hate come from?
Good to hear from others as to what they make of this understanding.
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Post by clouddust on May 6, 2015 0:41:28 GMT
Our use of language is getting a bit tricky! Again, we are not playing with words or definitions, but the reality they point to. Nevertheless, if love (the emotion/feeling we have towards another being) comes from God, where does hate come from? Good to hear from others as to what they make of this understanding. US .....it comes from us. CD |
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bee
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Post by bee on May 6, 2015 13:15:38 GMT
Is Love all inclusive?
If you believe so, then Love includes hate, It must if It is the Totality (God's Love).
When I have the emotion of love for another, the very reason it feels like that emotion is because in that moment I am not holding any resistance towards that person, animal, or experience... so consequently I am feeling what I Am.
I sincerely feel that most everyone attributes the emotion of love to someone or something outside of themselves.
But how can that be?
Some may not agree with this, but I do know when my egoic mind lets go of its belief in itself and is captivated by whatever It is that makes this unit's heart open, bingo, I feel Love.
I am in that moment feeling what I Am.
To answer clouddust's observation -
All Love is a capital "L", because that's exactly what It is, It is unconditional; so being unconditional It must also include hate.
And how can Love be difficult? It's not Love that's difficult, what the difficulty is, is to let all our many episodes of the play of this life just be that, a play,
I have at times felt the experience that it is possible to include hate into Love. Hate is not a reality, it is made up by the egoic self, hence it certainly is possible to Love the hate, because That which Loves totally absorbs the hate.
Hate is however, believed by the egoic self to be real, and yes it is real, it's a real imaginary story playing out, and yes also it is still a part of the Whole, but it is not the Whole.
Just as each of us as the body-mind (unit, egoic self) is not the Whole but just a part, then so is hate and killing just a part. What happens to anyone's hate story-line upon their death, well then ask what happens to their body-mind also?
Whenever hate plays out we can choose to include it, which means when we do not ever wish we didn't have those feelings we then don't fight and push at them anymore, and we find we can actually totally embrace them.
We can therefore Love hate which is vastly different than love to hate. Using the common understanding of love to describe that which we are playing out in our life's saga, does not describe Love. If it did no one would walk away from their loved partner looking for the invisible perfect partner that will make them happy once more.
One meaning of love is awareness as the egoic self is caught up in the belief that it is only that egoic-self and therefore firmly holds the belief that it is also all those emotions emanating from that self including the hate, and also (as Tony describes it) the 'emotional love'.
The other is living as Love which is unconditional, and because of what It is, It is the Totality, so It is the total embracement then of All that is playing out with the egoic self as the central character in this life experience and so must include everything, which also includes every experienced state, including hate.
I am noticing that I fluctuate in and out of the emotions of this life play, but I do seem to mostly retain the underlying knowing that I am not those emotions, but however I do still get caught in them. Sometimes I am able to just view them as an inclusion into All that I Am with any ownership, and sometimes not. When I am able to, I find I Love even that I thought I hated.
Whenever we can welcome what is, regardless what It is, we are fully allowing the total inclusion of everything, and that may also include any feelings of hate. This is Love and It is what each of us is also.
The question though is, in this moment, which is the only moment - where is awareness?
Is it focused in the belief it is the central character in the play, or is it aware it is everything in the play including the play?
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bee
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Post by bee on May 6, 2015 23:08:53 GMT
I have found love is a living choice I make.
It's about being mindful, but if mindful is not a fitting pointer then I can substitute staying aware that I can love.
It's about being aware that my egoic self always has this choice to love regardless what is. As my egoic self is so tied in with awareness in this life I could term this as awareness is remembering to stay awake to what it is.
But when ego senses and allows Love to open and permiate life then that Love opens up a doorway to a different world.
This is the world where All is perfect as It is, even though it is so easy to miss It All.
And there It is that I find Myself, I was there all along ... in every present moment exactly as It is.
That's what I always am regardless if I am awake to awareness or not.
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bee
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Post by bee on May 7, 2015 5:42:41 GMT
My last post contains the practice I endeavor to stay with in this present moment, which I am aware is
every moment.
Not altogether a task that is accomplished easily simply because awareness can get caught up into the many fictional sides of
life, that is unless I am ever watchful.
So, who is it then that is being watchful?
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bee
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Post by bee on May 8, 2015 6:57:47 GMT
"I sincerely feel that most everyone attributes the emotion of love to someone or something outside of themselves.
But how can that be?"
I asked this earlier and am now reflecting on that awareness I had earlier, so it's best we ask of our-self this:
How could anyone feel an emotion that is not within, or of our-self, how could we feel something that is extraneous, distant, or foreign to (which is not of) our self?
How could we ever feel something that we would never be able to recognize?
If your awareness, or you as awareness, can see it is not possible to know or feel something unless we ourselves are it already, then you will be able to become aware that we are already everything.
It is just the knowing in every moment that we are.
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tony
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Post by tony on May 8, 2015 11:43:33 GMT
bee, that's very insightful. It is also sheds light on your question "...who is it then that is being watchful?"
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tony
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Post by tony on May 9, 2015 1:59:26 GMT
Clouddust, continuing an earlier thread: if hate comes from us, where do we come from?
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bee
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Post by bee on May 9, 2015 20:07:30 GMT
"It is just the knowing in every moment that we are."
This is not accurate as it leads one away from reality. When I have been using a term like every moment or this moment it is implying there are more than one.
It is difficult to describe the awareness that there is only now and we all are It.
I grope around for the language to describe this sense of being and as soon as I try to convert it into words I find I immediately limit this sense of what I am.
So I'll leave It as this: I know there is only NOW (ONE).
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tony
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Post by tony on May 10, 2015 2:42:41 GMT
Expressing in words (languaging) what is beyond words is inherently difficult. The great teachers are able to use words to go beyond words, and a single sentence can point directly to and encapsulate Truth. We normally struggle finding the right word, etc. Because of that I suggested some languaging conventions. For example, I would use Present Moment to indicate that it is not referring to each and every moment that passes (sequential time) but to that which is beyond time (NOW).
In Meditation, there is no separate 'watcher': NOW points to everything that is happening, which includes the seer, the seen and the seeing.
_()_
Tony
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