bee
Administrator
Posts: 117 
|
Post by bee on May 10, 2015 11:58:24 GMT
I take in what you say re Present Moment showing up as NOW or That which is beyond time, but what I find is the act of referring to a time based pointer sidetracks awareness into seeing It as a form of time. So Ok, It may show as a form of time or as the unit, but I notice sometimes this is confusing as it seems to divert awareness away from the containing Space, or All, and into the more solid forms, as I sense that time is also a form.
|
|
tony
Administrator
Posts: 172
|
Post by tony on May 11, 2015 23:57:25 GMT
bee, it is a common experience that "the act of referring to a time based pointer" can mislead into believing that time is an independent variable. Isaac Newton thought so too, with space also considered an independent variable. When you stop and look at it, the clock only ticks away at a certain rate, it does not measure 'time'. Similarly, looking at the sun making a big circle in the sky led people to believe for thousands of years that it moved while the earth stood still (young children still believe that). This is known as the secondary illusion, like the the rope on the ground that is mistaken for a snake. The unit falls for that as it falls for perception (what it sees, hears, etc.) being equal to an independent, self-existing object. The big impact of science has been to show that perception by itself is not a source of truth.
However, in the science of the Spirit, as expressed by spiritual scientists [the great avatars, sages and mystics], the primary illusion is the belief that I am exclusively the unit, the body/mind mechanism, subject to the illusion of perception. That belief happens: it comes by being a human being (not a rock or a giraffe). The spiritual scientists, having done the appropriate science, have been saying for the last few thousands of years that it is possible to transcend that belief. It is a mis-take to hold that perspective as the Truth. The Truth, they say, is more like One No-Thing being All Things.
Once that message is heard, there is no problem looking at the clock to tell the 'time of day' [how many ticks have elapsed] and go and catch a bus. Similarly, there is no problem saying 'it's a beautiful sunset' or calling myself 'I'.
_()_
Tony
|
|
|
|
Post by clouddust on May 13, 2015 15:46:43 GMT
Clouddust, continuing an earlier thread: if hate comes from us, where do we come from? Hi Tony,
We come from God. We are created and we are created to choose. Hate, love, to forgive, for revenge; the choice is ours to make. The oneness, if we accept the things of God, is our inclusiveness with the creator. It's actually quite simple.
In Bee's post, he points out how we can choose to include it. I agree and would just add that we can also choose to react to it and act upon it. But Love and Hate are not the same as one is inclusive and the other exclusive. This is obvious in our world.
It has been written that we struggle against powers and principalities in this world. What is meant by that? Are the causes of Hate different from the causes of love? Is our response governed by the unseen, ongoing struggles in this world?
On time: To me, time is a measurement that is limited to this Earth and our understanding. The illusion is created when we think it is forever. Our imminent death is a reminder that time, as we know it, is limited.
|
|
tony
Administrator
Posts: 172
|
Post by tony on May 18, 2015 7:41:08 GMT
Clouddust, a further question from the 5 year old in me. If I was created by God and God gave me the power to choose, why would He/She/It let me make mistakes? As I understand some choices/mistakes can lead to being punished for eternity.
|
|
tony
Administrator
Posts: 172
|
Post by tony on May 18, 2015 12:21:04 GMT
Another thought and question. I wonder why you are asking "Are the causes of Hate different from the causes of love?" and "Is our response governed by the unseen, ongoing struggles in this world?" The questions imply that you don't know and you are seeking answers. Are you?
|
|
Kolomo
Administrator
Posts: 182
|
Post by Kolomo on Jun 1, 2015 17:40:37 GMT
We all have had our ‘non dual’ epiphanies that come and go. I believe this has helped us come to a better understanding of our reality but isn’t it time to move on? I can say that at least for myself I have moved away from trying to recapture some pleasant experience. My apologies if I am coming off a bit cynical but I believe the following quote depicts this journey. -
“We try to improve ourselves some of the time and yet, we fool ourselves a lot of the time. In the end, though, we're just trying to make ourselves feel a little better”
It seems to me that possibly the best we can do is to look carefully how the mind works especially in regards to how it creates this illusion of reality. This is what brings me to just looking at thoughts for now.
How many times have we read that thoughts have the power to shape reality? (what's wrong with right now?) When I read one of those lines, it often gets glossed over. “Ya, that’s so”, I think, “whatever, time to move on.” But lately, these ideas about thoughts are sinking in a bit more. I can’t help thinking about those generals and admirals in the military. What makes them who they are? -nothing but extraneous thoughts. We dress them up in uniforms and decorations and address them in special ways to prop up the illusion of thoughts. Have them run naked without their entourage of support. Who are they then? There is really no such thing as enlightenment on one hand and ignorance on the other. Those terms are nothing more than thoughts. We look to gain thoughts to support us but very often we harbor ‘negative’ thoughts that suppress us. Isn’t it a ‘spiritual’ practice in and of itself just to see clearly in your mind how thoughts work, how they are conditioned, how they condition us and finally, how to use this understanding to disempower them? As Lin Chi might say, “A true person is without rank and needs no props”
|
|
Kolomo
Administrator
Posts: 182
|
Post by Kolomo on Jun 3, 2015 14:46:52 GMT
So to re-answer the question of this thread - Is It something you can continually experience?
It’s been often said that very few people are able to attain this so called state of awareness or experience of It. I think what might be happening is that we are in search of a better feeling inside but that can prove to be as elusive as getting hold of a rainbow.. This is a completely natural endeavor. No one to my knowledge is programmed to seek out pain and suffering. Perhaps, what happens to those who truly come to peace is that they spend years, decades and a tremendous amount of effort to finally come to the conclusion that attaining a permanent good feeling inside is but a fantasy. They come to accept that going through various emotional states is exactly what is supposed to happen. It is the condition of the mind to judge and react. And it is this very acceptance that alleviates the sometimes difficult ‘reality’ of suffering. I thought Bee portrayed this nicely in his last post. So the question I put forth- Isn’t all this spirituality a matter of understanding rather than finding that ‘just right feeling’?
|
|
tony
Administrator
Posts: 172
|
Post by tony on Jun 3, 2015 23:39:46 GMT
Hi Kolomo, I was about to comment on your previous post (I will do that soon), but thought of saying something in regard to your last one. Yes, good to revisit the main question, but I would like to amend it through my language convention: a) Is It something 'you' can continually experience? ['you' meaning Tony, Kevin, the person/unit...) or b) Is It something You can continually experience? [You meaning the 'whole of you', known and unknown, dependent and independent, etc.]
There is a world of difference. In a) 'you' is a subject and the rest of the manifest is experienced as a separate object, It is also seen as an object that can be experienced; in b) the subject and object dichotomy disappears and what remains is It, No-thing (not within the realm of thought), therefore nothing to experience.
a) is the point of view where there is something wrong with this moment because I think about it; b) is the point of view where there can be nothing wrong with this moment (unless I think about it).
Spirituality therefore is a dimension of Life that comes directly from Understanding (not thinking) that: b) is Always, Already the case and a) happens within b).
Contemplation, Meditation, Worship, Service and Surrender are the outward paths to that Understanding. I'll leave it at that for the moment.
|
|
|
|
Post by clouddust on Jun 15, 2015 20:53:02 GMT
Clouddust, a further question from the 5 year old in me. If I was created by God and God gave me the power to choose, why would He/She/It let me make mistakes? As I understand some choices/mistakes can lead to being punished for eternity. Hi, I'm back. Sorry for the delay in responding but I've been experiencing a family illness and I'm eager to reply. Free Will. That's the answer to the first part of the question, but I'm not sure a 5 year old would understand. So I would say it this way: We have the gift of making a choice, a decision, a selection as to what we want, desire, respond to or react to, etc. We're not robots we have a gift and we CAN make a choice. Eternal punishment? Yah, but there's always the gift of forgiveness. What good is a gift if you don't open it? Unless, of course, you didn't realize you had the gift all along? Is that good for a 5 yr. old?
|
|
|
|
Post by clouddust on Jun 15, 2015 21:05:15 GMT
Another thought and question. I wonder why you are asking "Are the causes of Hate different from the causes of love?" and "Is our response governed by the unseen, ongoing struggles in this world?" The questions imply that you don't know and you are seeking answers. Are you? I think, on going back several posts, the issue was it all comes from the same place, or something like that. I differ on that opinion. Love is of God, hate is not. Hate is a result of our fallen state. Yes, I'm always seeking answers, but careful to regard the source of those answers. |
|
tony
Administrator
Posts: 172
|
Post by tony on Jun 17, 2015 6:17:22 GMT
Hello Clouddust, I was wondering if you were still participating in the discussions, so I'm glad you are back!
The 5 year old point of view, by the way, is that of innocence, of a beginner who has not been influenced by this or that philosophy, belief or perspective. As I had mentioned, it's a reference to the recommendation in the Gospels to be like a child. Whether your answer is good for such a child, I would say that for the 5 year old in me, it leaves him even more baffled, especially the idea of 'our fallen state'. At what stage of life do we fall? One more (possibly a last) thought: If love is of God and hate is not, does it follow that there are situations where God does not come in? If not, why not? I'm putting the question there to indicate the difficulty I have with the perspective of a God that is separate from certain events. No need to answer it.
I think we have given this topic a fair go (do you agree?) and it may be best to leave it at that.
_()_
Tony
|
|
Kolomo
Administrator
Posts: 182
|
Post by Kolomo on Jun 18, 2015 1:10:02 GMT
I know you mentioned possibly putting the subject aside but as this is the first time I read CD’s question carefully I could not help thinking about it. A few days ago I read a quote about judgments. It affected me as I find myself judging myself and others quite a bit. I haven’t yet been able to articulate my thinking into this subject clearly. Perhaps, I could say that when involved in judging I lose sight of ‘is-ness’or the natural unfolding of what appears as phenomena. In other words, I become entrenched in the dreamed world of mind. And now relating this to the topic; Are not love and hate just judgmental concepts of the mind? Love is usually attributed to whatever it is that makes the mind feel secure (attraction) and the judgment of hate is none other than fear (aversion). You could take this a step further and say that even mind itself is a form of judgment. In fact, the only thing that separates us from ‘God’ or awareness are judgmental thoughts. We are all It or God or awareness. The source of these ‘answers’ can be validated within yourself! Spirituality is no great secret. It just a matter of letting go of all concepts, thoughts, judgments- in other words, everything that is dreamed up by the mind and then, even the dream itself is none other than God. CD- I hope I didn’t come off too strongly. I am after all using this forum as a way express and develop my own views. I certainly don’t want to discredit anyone. As weird as it may sound, thinking of God as a separate entity and creator does not have to conflict with anything I just haphazardly wrote.
And as a final note, again, I don’t mean to disagree with anyone but, personally from my own experience, I always wince whenever I hear the talk of the innocence of a young child. Whoever came up with that rhapsody clearly has not spent much time with young children. Granted they might not trip on things as much as an adult might but they are very much entrenched in the ‘love-hate-power-fear’ dynamic. The real problem, as I see it, is that we never stop being 5 year old children. Sure, someone may have a lot of wealth and knowledge and display holy and pious attitudes but as soon as the rug underneath starts shaking the 5 year old is out in full force. Isn’t one of the main thrust of spirituality is to mature out of the 5 year old mindset?
|
|
tony
Administrator
Posts: 172
|
Post by tony on Jun 21, 2015 15:01:49 GMT
It's good to emphasize that we are using this Forum as a way to express and develop our views. The main motivator to post and enter into discussions is that to put those views out there respectfully (as we are all doing) and respond as we are moved to do to certain lines of inquiry. If we can see an alternative angle it is not to contradict or argue but to clarify. That there are differences in how we see this world is only natural, as we are individual unique and independent forms. So I see it as beneficial and helpful to put our views as clearly as we can state them, which is in any case a reflection of what we are (understanding, level of consciousness, etc.).
What may be 'obvious' to one (e.g. there is only One No-Thing going on) may not be obvious to another. Similarly, "thinking of God as a separate entity and creator" is an acceptable and satisfactory way in understanding their relationship with the Divine. However, in saying 'best to leave it at that' I sensed that those two views cannot be easily reconciled and any further attempts to do so would be inadequate.
In regard to a child's innocence, clearly one can find lots of examples of actual children who are already caught in the ‘love-hate-power-fear’ dynamic. That observation is of critical importance as it leads to the question of how do they/we develop that dynamic. It's not there when we are one day old. A baby is 100% baby, no extras. It may start to appear from around the age of two, when the I am 'me' is added to direct experiencing. That is the start of the separation mechanism, which takes hold and becomes normal in later years. It is an inherent part of being a human (instead of being a giraffe). As far as I know, the two year old doesn't decide to have a separate sense of self. The impulse to reunite with what is Whole, if and when it arises, comes out of that initial sense of separation. Perhaps best to say that the innocence we are talking about is that prior to the arising of the self.
This brings us back to the conversation we started a while ago on 'dying to self'. It is a central teaching and method in all the major Religions, as an approach to return to the Whole/God/Creator. That separation was never real, it was and is presently imagined, and because of that, there is nothing substantial to achieve or attain [the process that Arlene is going through aims to show that that is the case]. Seeing the delusion of separateness, that it is imagined, is the realization of the Truth that makes 'one' free. Judgment, love, hate, good and bad are aspects of the sense of a fixed self. They are 'real' enough as events are real in a dream. Waking up reveals that there was no separation in the first place. One is back in a 'space'where one can walk naked because of one's inherent innocence and walk with the lions and not be afraid.
Leaving the ancient myths aside, that innocence can be directly experienced in each and every moment we breathe. Clearly, obviously, breathing is happening: no need to have the extra 'I breathe'. No need to have a deity/creator separate from What Is.
_()_
Tony
|
|
bee
Administrator
Posts: 117
|
Post by bee on Jun 21, 2015 17:06:48 GMT
"This brings us back to the conversation we started a while ago on 'dying to self'".
Which is not different to that question:
Is It something you can continuously experience?
Can It be continuously experienced?
Is it possible to continuously experience It?
For clarity, maybe it matters which way this question is asked.
As Tony pointed to, when a you is included it introduces belief in separatism as an egoic-you and also a degree of confusion as to which you it is referring to.
You is always experiencing It, as It is It.
However you 'may' be a different story as you Is the constructed story of You.
No matter if the question is changed it is still referring to separate yous as we.
How do we know we are It?
How do we know we are experiencing It?
How can we awake that we are always It?
One pointer that keeps awareness awake, or You present is the label we term "agreement".
In this context it simply means agreement with What Is.
What I call love is nothing other than the agreement with What Is. That forms my definition of what I term love, and I see it as quite distinct from hate which is rejection of What Is. However both love and hate, are still included in What Is.
Living the fullness of You, or as It, is agreeing with It, Now, Now and Now (this One point, this Oneness, this never-ending One instant).
So to put another way, there is no disagreement, Now.
This can vary between an easy shift to a monumental shift of perception of What Is as all life, including the self, before thought labels a self, and then creates a separate self.
The Oneness searched for is right Now and we are already It but awareness cannot see It as it is caught up in the belief of a separate self.
A master stroke of Totality - How to play this whole game called "life" with make believe separate existences of Itself without all these cells of Itself realising it's all a game.
The many, many cells believe they are all separate selfs and then carry out what could be seen as unlimited but different strategic battles that are somehow drempt and thought up, and believed, then played out. Done with (almost) absolute perfection of putting the awareness of yous into some sort of a trance like state whereby awareness's consciousness is lost in all the believed role-plays and so generally has no recollection what it is part of.
But the game is unravelling as there are some cells or aspects of awareness that have swallowed the pill.
----------------------------
About judgements..
Awareness believing, in a case of mistaken identity as a separate unit, that it is limited and so unconsciously judges nearly all aspects of life, and in so doing introduces varying degrees of suffering because of those judgements.
No judgement = no suffering.
We could look at it all as a corporate entity where Judgement Ltd. has incorporated Suffering Ltd.
|
|
|
|
Post by angelssix on Jun 23, 2015 0:56:00 GMT
I just wanted to say something to this subject. You know what, there's a guy in my band that talks like Clouds and he makes a lot of sense. I'd have to say that this Jesus, you call a great teacher/sage or whatever, makes a lot of sense, too. He says, the guy in my band, that God is not separate, that he's involved but we have free will and can choose. That God loves us and wants us to come to him but he won't force the issue because he wants us to want him by our own choice. Does that make sense? I'll bet it does to clouds.
I'll search around and read some more of all these teachers you talk about and get back to you on this enlightenment because I don't see or hear any beneficial stuff coming from any of these videos.
|
|
