tony
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Post by tony on Aug 5, 2015 10:33:24 GMT
Arlene, a lighthearted comparison on the Forums: LU scores 26 posts per member, while we score 67 posts per member! A bit more seriously, it's difficult to compare the 'quality' of the posts, but our very small group might even enjoy a higher level of one-to-one interaction...
How come we haven't heard from Clouddust for so long? I hope she is well.
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Post by forum22015 on Aug 5, 2015 19:10:04 GMT
Hi Bee, Tony et al,
Hey Bee how did you know about D.E. is this a common term from an author or have you been through the gate process. I think what the attainment is to feel better and know what I am more than intellectually. This occurs occaisionally but more is nicer, which is the need of thought. Watching the mind-stream was a wonderful experience and hearing how this wonderfullness increases is the carrot on the stick. I also know being a smarty pants that these statements is contrary to What is but What is has wandered a long time hasn't it?
After posting yesterday, I thought of another thing besides my Awakening being swallowed by the mind-Stream was my fascination and split into duality by calling What Is 'Awakeness', another identity hook, so sneaky, the mind. Now to avoid this I just refer to the experience/being as What Is. OH, also my accumulation of belief patterns created by the study of Non-Duality. Before this process there didn't seem to be any beliefs, LOL!! So I guess it's a cleaning out process as well.
Hey, Clouddust how come I haven't heard from you?? Did I offend you some how? I have a history of doing this unconsciously without any intent. It seem, I say things to others where they have heard it somewhere else from someone who did intend hurt, but I don't. So just in case this has happened, I apologise from my whole heart hoping it helps a little bit. If none of this is real then gee, what a wonderful day you're having!
Much love, Arlene
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bee
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Post by bee on Aug 5, 2015 22:39:22 GMT
Arlene I have been popping in to see how you are doing, but direct experience is just another descriptive term. DE is what we are always doing even the thought process... you see, nothing is really separate is it? To use one of your terms which is stickiness, it's only that we get stuck on the believability of these thoughts, that is, we often do believe they are what we really are, and also what is happening to us. But while they are a part of what we are it's just to see them as accessories like clothing and not believe that their fancy labels are what we are. Your last exercise you are doing is quite a good one that highlights this. Yes awakeness is also another term or thought as there really is no-thing that can describe What Is or the Isness of All. Let the following rest a while with you - See yourself as "Now" ... just as now, this cuts right through all thought processes as it is 'All' happening 'Now', DE is now, your thoughts, your actions, your sensations, your beliefs are all now, all yesterdays and tomorrows are now. Light bulb moment. On! Everything is Now. So what are you? That why looking at DE can remind ourself we are always Now.
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Kolomo
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Post by Kolomo on Aug 6, 2015 2:12:17 GMT
I’d rather like this site. Good people and a good fit. I take the approach of trying to write out my understanding in my own words. Personally, I try to stay away from non-dual technical terms whenever I can. I am absolutely confident in saying that they are just cognitive pointers that really have nothing to do with truth- nothing! In fact you can get lost in them. I suppose it is like trying to show someone how to swim by just talking to them. If they don’t rely on their natural instincts when diving into the deep end they will surly drown. But, on the other hand, it’s kind of a fun sport to construct meaning from them and as long as you try to really ingest them they could be instructive. I feel that it is my responsibility to come an understanding that is my own. I know I am not solitary individual that goes through various emotional states trying to deal with an external world. I know this without doubt. I have lots of arguments that prove this to me. It is simply not a question. But do I still identify with this ‘isolated’ phantom? I’m afraid so. But I have to say the identification is losing strength bit by bit. I don’t ever think that I am going to have some grand realization where I instantly awaken a free bird. Those are just experiences that come and go. For me it is a deconditioning process where every day, in fact almost constantly, I am involved in yielding this ego phantom to what is. It is a long, perhaps never ending process, but that is what is. .
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bee
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Post by bee on Aug 6, 2015 7:22:19 GMT
Kolomo you have hit It without using all those often repeated "enlightened words and descriptions". So good!
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tony
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Post by tony on Aug 6, 2015 12:34:14 GMT
The 'problem' is not (cannot be) with words and concepts, no matter how many times they are used, but with how we individually receive and interpret them. To make the most obvious point, we are all using words in a given language whether in writing, speaking or thinking, talking about the weather or the meaning of life. Whatever we end up saying, it's lots of symbols put out there in attempting to communicate with each other. As I see it, that applies to words spoken by the great spiritual teachers as well as by a young child trying to tell us something. Even my own words may be loaded with extraneous and subtle meanings that I have accumulated over the many years of absorbing knowledge through reading, listening and generally being influenced by the environment I have grown up in. Therefore I cannot 'believe' (attach myself to) in anything I say.
However, the experience of living in the Present Moment is where words are spoken and let go of, in the same way that a breath follows another, a foot follows a foot in walking, and a sensation is replaced by another sensation without a gap in perception. The 'problem' is our habit of attaching ourselves to words and believe in them. Then we say 'I understand that' (when I like what I hear) and 'I don't understand that' (when I don't like what I hear). Same applies to people that we agree or disagree with.
In practicing any of the non-dual methods there is no identification with any 'one'. The experience is Immediate and Present, regardless of all the thoughts and feelings that arise. That's because the practice does not distinguish between a subject (e.g. a meditator) and an object (e.g. of meditation). There is no process of thinking about anything, because thinking itself is allowed to happen, as breathing is. When thinking is allowed to just come and go without attachment or judgement, it's called non-thinking. It doesn't stick and carries no karma. In any of the non-dual practices, what I am is what I do and vice-versa. SELF is self. Nirvana (the Absolute, Emptiness) is Samsara (the Relative, Forms). Two aspects of the same One No-thing, 'not one, not two'.
Back to words. Whether any of that means anything to anyone would depend on what that 'one' can hear and appreciate as well as (the obvious) command of this particular language and its symbols.
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bee
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Post by bee on Aug 7, 2015 8:00:36 GMT
"The 'problem' is not (cannot be) with words and concepts, no matter how many times they are used, but with how we individually receive and interpret them." Tony it's obvious isn't it that this is the case, but what are the actual mechanics involved as to why? Without the belief there is no glue, also without the descriptive words there is nothing to be glued to, so I understand what Kolomo was saying in that it's all in the doing while learning how to swim. Tony you refer to attachment while Arlene terms it as sticky, so the reality, whatever we like to call it to cause this, is one's belief in whatever it is that one is attached or stuck to. It's as if the words used can often take the place of an actual experience because of the belief in what the words are pointing to then seems to make the practice of what they are describing redundant. So in a way the harder work and the realisation of the practice then becomes unneeded. A good example of this was the video Kolomo posted recently on "The Future of God Debate" .... non-duality-group.freeforums.net/thread/24/video-practices... where the person who has often been heard referring to the word and the idea of peace was exhibiting anything but that towards others in that clip.
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Kolomo
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Post by Kolomo on Aug 7, 2015 15:58:39 GMT
A little editing: I agree, we almost have to ignore the words and just try to feel out what they are pointing to.
A case in point is ‘the witness’ which is sometimes is equated with being an observer. At first it makes you think that somehow you are this entity that passively watches over your emotional states. But isn’t this like splitting your ego up into different parts? Here I am as the ‘cool one’ watching over knucklehead. It’s a pretty good trick.
The observer or witness could not be a state or a thing that we actually turn to or emulate. I think it is more of subtle recognition that all is awareness, no matter what the feeling, even resistance to what is. Awareness appears to go through all these different modulations. The witness is not separate from any of this, it’s more of a knowingness that allows the dance to play as is.
A quote that seem relevant (I’m not quite sure by who)
“It is wise to guard against formulas. The most direct teachings point to what you already are.”
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tony
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Post by tony on Aug 8, 2015 13:31:35 GMT
Some comments on a few threads...
Arlene regarding your earlier post ("I must say I'm a big failure so far..."; "I wonder if that is going to be 'the me'..."; "I realize the mental world...ate my Awakening, yum-yum." and "I wonder what is going to happen."). The following may or may not make any sense but 'you' cannot get awakened because You are already Awake but think/believe you are not. We as body/mind units which we call 'I', are objects that come and go, constantly changing (i.e. are born and die) but You know beyond doubt that You don't die because You were never born. That knowledge is inherent to your Being (can't be remembered as an event because it's always Now, not in time) and does not need to be articulated or understood by the mind/thought component of the unit. So, "..I'm a big failure..." is only a thought that arises. It has no Truth in it. Faith is trusting that, whether 'you' understand or not, You are already Whole and Time-less. Simply hear that, despite thoughts and doubts to the contrary.
bee in regard to "so the reality, whatever we like to call it to cause this, is one's belief in whatever it is that one is attached or stuck to." Yes, and also dependent on different levels of consciousness. To a 3 year old, reality is what she knows from her direct experience which includes the sun coming out of the mountains and going back behind the mountains, and that Santa exists. As long as she is attached to/believes in that, that's her reality. No problem. An older child may understand that Santa does not exist, but may not have gained enough knowledge/consciousness to see clearly that the movement of the sun is real enough but only apparent. Again, no problem. An adult may well see that but can also believe that objects are self-existing 'out there' and that time and space are separate independent variables (Isaac Newton). At the level of consciousness of an Albert Einstein the time/space inter-relationship becomes evident and hence his notion of reality also changes. At the level of consciousness of a Ramana Maharshi, there is no thing 'out there' as there is no separation between "I" and it. It's the consciousness dimension of reality 'within'. For Jesus, Gautama and Krishna (the Lords), the level of consciousness is full Identity with the Source of consciousness itself; Reality is totally independent of and totally inherent in the world of the myriad things. Reality, the One No-thing, is the Cognizing Emptiness, the miraculous Awareness, the unknowable background to all the relative realities. It is the Life/Love that lives in 'you' and 'me'.
Kolomo "The witness is not separate from any of this, it’s more of a knowingness that allows the dance to play as is." Yes! In my language convention I would say Witness (not any entity like an observer or witness) or better still Witnessing, which is the capacity or faculty itself of seeing and perceiving without a separate perceiver. It is what happens in the practice of Meditation. No subject and object dichotomy (in Dogen Zenji's expression, 'body and mind drop off') and there is just Experiencing, i.e. the seer, the seeing and the seen are the one event.
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bee
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Post by bee on Aug 9, 2015 14:03:01 GMT
Hi Arlene a question to you in light of what has now happened. What is different between what is contained in Jon's last statement and your last? Is there any difference? Could you term his statement as DE? As Tony pointed to, when does Santa or the Tooth Fairy lose the reality and so become make believe to the young? Is it when those youngsters start to see through the Santa story? However there are records of grown-ups still fervently believing and arguing that Santa is every bit as real as their own family. How is this possible? How can a number of earth's inhabitants believe their planet is flat when they see the video evidence to the contrary?
To steal Tony's words here: "The following may or may not make any sense but 'you' cannot get awakened because You are already Awake but think/believe you are not." I see Jon's statement to you as his belief only, so then if you also believe that then it becomes "your" reality also as well as his. When you trust you already are, you sense Awakeness and you do start to see through the myriad of stories much like the Santa one. All our thoughts, our life situations...So what! Any of us are no different and we all have a colourful repartee, does it really matter? Yes! But only IF we believe the mind's banter about its idea of itself. Your mind, or mine, in fact everyone's is full of crosstalk, wordplay, and witticisms. The major question then is this: Do we simply and happily let the mind do what it does without 'hanging our hat on it', and if so can we then sit back and watch and listen without any real effect? Or, do we as awareness get caught up in each story's web by jumping in and accepting the role as the lead actor/actress, and in many cases then finding we are pushing against what we take on as real?
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Kolomo
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Post by Kolomo on Aug 10, 2015 0:56:55 GMT
The following were thoughts I had when I walked the dog this morning. I came up with some excellent pointers but should have brought a tape recorder because by the time I got home I couldn’t remember exactly what they were. I’m not really responding to anything on this thread in particular, just my own enquiries that were encouraged by the thread.
The world is reflected by way of this witnessing. It is what I am but it is not an identity. All these forms; trees, birds, people, express innate presence. How can words describe this? Words are just concepts that are isolated from what is. Simple presence is overlooked because the mind is always trying to construct what each moment means to itself. Once these mental antics are relaxed presence reveals itself. Nothing needs to be done.
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bee
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Post by bee on Aug 10, 2015 1:50:47 GMT
Arlene I see you wrote this: "You can tell the mind: no sad stories, repeatedly, and it will stop eventually, but the residual is just undefined feelings."
Isn't that resisting What Is? Or maybe even at times trying to fight It? Do you think it is possible to win even one round? When one expands their perception it is able to be noticed that everything, bar none, is contained as IT, maybe better understood saying everything IS What Is. So this would also mean all thought, wouldn't it? How can everything other than only thoughts be the Totality? You see the impossibility of this? Resisting the thoughts to any degree is where the suffering lays, and that suffering is also contained as What Is. Whenever we can open completely to All in this present instant, regardless what the mind stories are, we notice we are far more than those thoughts, we are the Love that allows those thoughts to exist..completely. Just remember we are not only the painting but also the canvas, and just as the canvas allows, IT will also allow every part of what we call life to be painted upon It.
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Post by clouddust on Aug 14, 2015 13:15:47 GMT
Hi Arlene, Good to see you are still around. It seems your journey is a complicated one. Keep going; keep asking. I'm hoping you come around more.
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Post by clouddust on Aug 24, 2015 11:46:34 GMT
Hello Angelssix and welcome back! Now if we could just get AZ to pop in again... CD
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Post by angelssix on Aug 24, 2015 12:03:08 GMT
Thanks clouddust
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