tony
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Post by tony on Apr 26, 2015 13:23:55 GMT
Clouddust,
regarding your request on “how you specifically have died to self; what has been unlearned or learned and how self has been denied? “, Kolomo thought it would be a good idea to open a new thread on personal experiences. So I have posted this under the heading ‘Experiences and reflections on our individual journeys’.
Perhaps best to start with this: I die to self by accepting ‘self’ as part of what happens. That can only happen Now, in this Present Moment. It is clear that I can’t live other than Now: it is impossible to live a second ago or a second in the future. Past, present and future exist as thought forms arising Now.
Another way of describing dying to self is to say that ‘self’ is no longer my primary point of view, the one exclusive and defining aspect of What I Am; my Identity. What is experienced with senses and mind (the unit’s ongoing activity) together with what cannot be known with senses and mind make up the Totality of my current experience. That is the state of Meditation. It’s because we pay exclusive attention to the senses and mind (especially the thought stream) that we ‘forget’ that Presence which is always there but is simply Silence/Awareness/Emptiness. Once seen, it cannot be forgotten, although there is a constant temptation to get lost in the world of mind/senses. The practice of Meditation is the natural returning to the Non-duality of ‘That&this’.
Dying to self is not denying/rejecting self, but transcending and including it. It becomes impersonal, like watching a stage play. When I do that, I am still conscious of my body/mind: I attend to its needs; I enjoy a good meal; lovemaking; a chat with friends; I feel both joy and sadness, happiness and unhappiness as they come and go; past hurts and unfinished emotional business still come up to be looked at, now with Compassion, shining a light onto them; the temptation to judge others arises but is seen and let go of: it’s my past karmic life catching up in my present experience of it. As it is Accepted it becomes right suffering (without complaints). At the same time, Silence/Awareness/Emptiness is the Source/Background to all that activity.
I can relate some experiences I had over the years, which gave me a taste of Non-duality. Rather than go into details (I can do that at another time), I can just say that they demonstrated that What I Am is greater than just the body/mind dimension.
Good to hear from everyone on experiences, insights and reflections during your journey so far.
_()_
Tony
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Kolomo
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Post by Kolomo on Apr 26, 2015 23:56:49 GMT
Tony, nice post, I'm a little busy now but I will try and work something up
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tony
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Post by tony on May 3, 2015 1:43:04 GMT
Clouddust, replying to the earlier question on delusions, and how that relates to Gautama and Jesus.
Where I am coming from with that statement is to emphasize that any human being has delusions by virtue of his/her human-ness.
As a human being (not a rock, a tree or a giraffe, an angel, god or a demon) I experience both the benefits (sentience, self-reflection, intelligence) and limitations (self/body/mind-centred view) of that form. Therefore I am (as a unit, body/mind, psycho-somatic apparatus, etc.), an object/form that appears in this Manifestation like any other object. As an object I/it is born and dies. It has physical and mental/emotional responses and reactions, according to its conditioning and life-long programming. More importantly, I/it, on its own, cannot know right from wrong, or truth from falsehood, other than what I have been programmed with. As humans we make mistakes, ‘to err is human’. That is what “I” know of my ‘self’ as a unit. That’s self-knowledge.
I believe this is a crucial point to see in order to understand What I Am. Therefore it is said that to enter the Way is to study the self in order to forget the self.
My use of Gautama and Jesus (and all sages), who were/are human beings, was to make that point. In my understanding, they got up in the morning like us, did what they had to do, laughed or cried when it was time to laugh or cry and then went to bed to sleep. According to the stories we hear, Gautama went in search of a solution to suffering (after he realized the facts of birth, sickness, and death) and spent 6 years in ascetic practices before he woke up to his true nature. Jesus experienced temptations, tremendous physical and mental anguish before admitting to “Thy Will be done”. They, like us, had to go through direct experience before dropping the false view of self and realizing Self (Love, God, etc.).
The unlearning and retraining is that process that starts when it occurs to one that he was lost in the dream of ‘self’ and ‘other’. That process can go on for years (or lifetimes) before one comes out of the self-centred dream (delusions). In the same way that one doesn’t have to blame ‘dreaming’ on awakening in the morning, so there is no need to blame our self for causing confusion and doubts. It’s enough to recognize it.
_()_
Tony
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Post by forum22015 on May 21, 2015 23:22:08 GMT
Hi Tony,
Nice post and thanks for the email. Like I said I will ,post the date I was here and see if it coincides with the reply(?) date. 5/21/15
Love to everyone,
Arlene
PS I'm starting with the Liberation Unleashed awakening process and have my first guide. Anyone can visit and see my name there as arlenez working with JohnathanR. I'll update you when I'm done. Wish me luck for further awakening. I wish you would all come by and participate. Cloudust this is a golden opportunity for you and it won't effect your spiritual path to see through the "me". Ask Tony is you are not sure. Love and hugs. ; > )
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tony
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Post by tony on May 22, 2015 10:53:16 GMT
Hello Arlene, good to hear from you through a post. We are all trying or have tried various paths and methods in the quest to understand what is going on in our lives. Once the impulse 'to know' arises, it's hard to resist and, as I mentioned sometime ago, it's like already having one's head in the tiger's mouth. When the jaws close it's not up to 'you'.
Awakening to one's one's true nature is both obvious (right under our noses) and seemingly impossible (the mirage/dream of feeling separate feels very real). That's why the Zen people call it the Gateless Gate.
All the best with the Liberation Unleashed awakening process.
Tony
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Kolomo
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Post by Kolomo on May 22, 2015 23:05:12 GMT
yes, nice to hear from you! What popped into my mind; it is 'seemingly impossible' because there is nothing to awaken to. The liberation process sounds a bit familiar, personally I am an advocate of any and all paths -take what sounds good, drop what doesn't. With love -kevin
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tony
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Post by tony on May 24, 2015 2:37:13 GMT
I would say No-thing to awaken to, but something to awaken from. That 'awakening from' is the 'spiritual' life and the need to 'practice' even though What We Are is already Awake (Perfect, Whole, Love, Divine, etc.). The dream analogy is very apt: we wake up from the dream phase to the awake phase, which is nothing special because it is regarded as our normal state of consciousness. However, the Zen story about being a man or a butterfly [in earlier post] queries which one is real (is it either or both?). When it is realized that We contain all three phases or states (awake, dreaming and deep sleep) then Identity shifts to include the fourth state (known in the major traditions as Turyia (Hindu/Advaita), Formless (Buddhist) and Transcendent/Immanent (Christian). The Non-dual perspective says that We are all four at the same time, not any particular one. To believe that we are only the One (Singularity) is as dualistic as to believe we are only many (singularity). Therefore: 'not one, not two'. From that it follows that sitting down to eat breakfast is simply sitting down to eat breakfast. _()_ Tony ![]() Attachments:Picture.docx (22.29 KB)
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Kolomo
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Post by Kolomo on May 24, 2015 5:54:20 GMT
I’ll have to put some time in going over that diagram; is that a rugby field? Just having fun with it, but I agree: "sitting down to eat breakfast is simply sitting down to eat breakfast" So maybe it could simply be said the primary mistake is thinking there is something to awaken to other than what is happening right now, or, the very act of seeking is what keeps the dream going.
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tony
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Post by tony on May 24, 2015 13:01:41 GMT
The diagram represents the Formless is Form rugby field!
You are spot on in regard to the primary mistake. It's the same as saying "What's wrong with this present moment, if you don't think about it".
It’ s not difficult to envisage that ‘What Is’ is Always, Now ‘What Is’ irrespective of what I/you/me thinks, believes or imagines, i.e. It 'surpasses all understanding', beyond rational thought.
As I read it, the myth of the fall from Grace describes the primary human mistake (Original Sin): as a human (from about the age of 2 on-wards, i.e. unwittingly) I assumed an identity with a body/mind/ego (which I call me) and seemingly lost my original relationship with and the capacity to see Things As They Are, Always, Now.
That caused the ‘blood, sweat and tears’ of intense suffering and the sense of deep alienation. In turn that led to seeking a way out of suffering. The seeking happened within the dream of a separate sense of self. One seeks until one is sick of seeking. It then happens, by God’s Grace, that there is an awareness of the fourth state. It’s nothing special. Nothing changes other than seeing that a separate ‘me’ was part of a dream condition. Sitting is sitting; breathing is breathing; it rains when it does, and if someone slaps me on the face it hurts. Therefore “all is well and all will be well in all manner of things”.
_()_
Tony
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Kolomo
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Post by Kolomo on May 24, 2015 23:46:17 GMT
Yes, Sailor Bob is one of my favorites and he’s down there in your corner! But, would you say, then, that hand-in-hand with this primary error or mistake is the seeking of a preferable experience, instead of truth? for seeking or wanting a different experience is resistance to ‘what is’. The mind is dividing up ‘what is’ into desires and aversions; it is caught up in judgments and discriminations – taking them seriously as something separate from ‘what is’, when all along there is nothing apart from ‘what is’- they are 'what is'.
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bee
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Post by bee on May 25, 2015 14:53:03 GMT
A rather, what I saw as, revealing experience last Sunday. I went to my son in law and daughter's coffee shop on the Gold Coast to carry out some repairs and maintenance which ended up taking much longer than anticipated. I was dropped off at home a little after 10 PM along with a few boxes of tools and fittings and a nice dinner that the kids made for me.
I was truly looking forward to just popping inside and warming up the food as I hadn't eaten so far that day, but of course had a few beverages at the shop. Next was to feed the two mutts then showering and into bed as the three nights prior I didn't hit the sack untill 2, 3 and 4AM.
So after I moved all the boxes from where they were emptied from the kids car I searched everywhere, pulled all the goods out of boxes, but could not locate the dinner so I presumed it was still in their car.
About then awareness popped in with a 'look for the dogs'.
OK, yes there they were both sharing my dinner on the front lawn.
But now for the next part, I got cranky, I was hugely peeved as was so looking forward to what had been prepared for me.
So those two mutts got roused on, sworn at, called quite a few names, sworn at again, then put to bed without any of their normal dinner. Once inside the protests and name calling didn't end as I opened a can of baked beans and ate from the tin, well at least they were in a cheese sauce. So that ended up being dinner and also food for the day and the reverberations still continued to roll.
It was however an easy soft feeling that seemed to accompany all those protestations as if it was all being just viewed and I could actually sense it was as if I, or the unit was the actor caught in a real life drama, while I or awareness was watching, experiencing, and in a weird way enjoying the misfortune of me, the unit.
The protests though continued on until the unit showered and hit the sack.
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Kolomo
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Post by Kolomo on May 25, 2015 16:19:00 GMT
That’s what we’re talkin about -a great real life example! Well, maybe I shouldn’t say ‘real life’ but real experience. Also, not to be undone by Tony’s rugby field diagram, I attached a ring-around-the –rosie one  |
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tony
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Post by tony on May 26, 2015 8:20:00 GMT
I have been to see Sailor Bob on a number of occasions. One couldn't think of a more unassuming character. As Nisargadatta Maharaj did, he keeps on making the one point, i.e. it's only a natural mis-take (therefore, no blame) that makes us mis-identify What We Are for what we appear to be. Therefore, the mistake can only be corrected by ‘seeing’ the mistake: until it is seen, it doesn't look like a mistake (until one realizes it, the mirage looks real).
In regard to the "seeking of a preferable experience, instead of truth" it's useful to put context around it. There is no rational explanation as to why ‘Consciousness in the form of humans’ makes mistakes of identity and seeks a preferable experience instead of truth, other than observing that it happens to every human. A wider context can help: Consciousness (God, What Is, Awareness, etc.) manifests in and as all forms, i.e. not separate from them. It is both the Ultimate Form and the Source of all forms. The excellent Koshas diagram illustrates that clearly with the outer circle containing all inner states.
Therefore, it includes the phenomenon of taking seriously what the mind (discriminative thought) presents. That's why the Hundu tradition calls the whole phenomenon Maya or Divine Play. Same as the Buddhist concept of Nirvana is Samsara, and Big Mind includes small mind. No duality.
_()_
Tony
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tony
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Post by tony on Jul 15, 2015 13:20:27 GMT
Hi all, I just watched the movie Gravity for the second time (if you haven't seen it, I strongly recommend you do). I saw messages and metaphors that had escaped me on its first viewing 2 years ago: as I see it, it's as close as one can get to a live demonstration of what Enlightenment/Salvation/Liberation/Non-duality is. Instead of defining and trying to understand it through words and concepts, it's best to see it practiced by human beings (as recommended by the Great Teachers and sages). For discussion!
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Kolomo
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Post by Kolomo on Jul 16, 2015 21:43:57 GMT
Wow, I guess I have to do a second take. I sure didn't get any of that when I saw it but I did enjoy the cinematography
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