Kolomo
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Post by Kolomo on Mar 4, 2015 3:39:47 GMT
Why are we even here in the first place? Ya, I know, the question implies a duality; a subject conscious of it self as an object. Still, is not this a good question to really ask? The only possible answer is ‘I don’t know’. Science can do all the exploration in the world and come up with all kinds of explanations, but still, the bottom line is ‘I don’t know’. Since we can’t ever know how or why anything exists, it is impossible to really know anything. What we do instead is form beliefs. Probably the biggest one is that we believe what we see is real (or unreal as the case may be), and that we are human forms, and that there is time and space. So why is to so hard just to see the obvious; that we can’t know anything and just be done with all this spiritual rigmarole? Attachments. I see in myself that it is this self-preservation- attachment that literally blocks the natural God-given sense of ease. So I was thinking to start this new thread to discuss this matter and ways or practices to let go of attachments.
I hit upon one last week – forgiveness. The only reason we hold resentment and are not able to forgive is because we are attached to a false belief about some phony sense of righteousness. So forgive your most despicable enemy, forgive another’s righteousness, and most of completely forgive yourself.
To end in a quote by Adyashanti, “You must choose between your attachments and happiness.”
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bee
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Post by bee on Mar 4, 2015 4:25:28 GMT
Kolomo I like what you said.
Does that mean I am attached to that?
No, as I have learnt that when I like, I am allowing Me, I am allowing All of me, and when I like parts of life that I notice others do not, I am still liking and not rejecting. Whenever I reject anything what am I doing?
I am rejecting myself.
Really pretty dumb as I am All, not just the seemingly good bits.
Good topic, and yes you also included the brains of 'science'.
So mankind keeps on searching the sub-atomic world, and the inter-galactic space and the depths of the oceans trying to figure out how it all came about. ( "the meaning of life" -Monty Python).
And the search for others is to find an enlightened guru who may lead one on the path towards nirvana.
It has been said that God, (The Oneness of All) hid Itself, which is what everyone is in the place they would not think to look.
Ha! Ha! They will never notice the very essence they already are, which really is this will be a great game for Me to play with Myself, with all those infinite aspects of Me as the One.
OK, well back to what I call the real world as that which is looking back at Itself and includes everything and this and other units of the Whole. There are so many opportunities in this life when experiencing the countless wonders of nature for the self to become aware of Itself, and Its already current perfection within or of 'The Whole'.
I see hidden in all of nature that which we Are.
Many people search for more and more in life, and we all seem to search and strive for better, believing there the happiness lays waiting.
I have experienced friends renovating their homes into their idea of perfection which then will deliver their happiness only to see them sell and move on when completed. Their pot of golden bliss was not where they thought. I am no different as I have often believed my happiness lays in something or someone outside of myself.
Are singer-songwriters also a wonder of nature?
Well yes maybe. But isn't everything?
The following lyrics by the Pet Shop Boys are from their number "Love etc."
The lyrics, only by themselves, do not do anything for the self to "wake-up" that it may be far far greater than the either things or circumstances in life that it keeps on wanting more and more of in order to find true happiness, but that it may in fact be the underlying pre-existing (and often un-noticed) love that everything desired actually arises in...
So consider listening to the track as it maybe worthwhile enjoying and letting this song permeate within a few times.
Just saying maybe.
The awareness that we all are love is buried within the depth of the song hinting the only thing we need more of is....
but do we realise we already are that...
Yes, it's Love.
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tony
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Post by tony on Mar 5, 2015 2:45:20 GMT
Really enjoyed the Pet Shop Boys (a fan of rock ballads, etc.). It's a groovy version of money can't buy love.
Why are we here in the first place? An answer is 'I don't know' and another 'why not?'. It is one of the age old questions humans ask. 'Don't know' is perfect because it is an honest admission that I (the person/unit/etc.) cannot possibly know with my mind, otherwise we would all know by now.
If we take the 'why' out of it, what's left is what is obviously the case, i.e. that 'we are here', like everything else is. Acknowledging, Accepting, Allowing 'existence' of all that there is, allows for the Realization that It Is Already, Always All There Is. Nothing outside of That. Existing as a human being is the Absolute manifesting in time and space. A one day old baby is a perfect one day old baby. Same for a 91 year old man. Same applies to the existence of a rock. Non-duality.
Knowing that there is nothing other than This is seeing the absolute equality of all things. They are all made of the same 'stuff': it's all Divine. My existence is Absolute, whether I am clear or confused, happy or unhappy, still or active, one day old or 91 years old.
In that Context, nothing to like or dislike, love or hate, forgive or not forgive. The guilty and the innocent are all the same in God's eyes.
_()_
Tony
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Kolomo
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Post by Kolomo on Mar 7, 2015 16:09:23 GMT
I suppose as to whether the world is real or not, the best answer may be that of a sarcastic and annoyed teenager, “Whatever!”
But the question of attachments remains. It seems to me that the root cause is the notions of enlightenment, Buddha himself or, in fact, any notion of identity. Seeking the fantasy of perfection, when perfection already is, is the essence of anxiety.
'If You Meet the Buddha on the Road, Kill Him'
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tony
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Post by tony on Mar 12, 2015 11:09:54 GMT
Kolomo, I like your idea of proceeding by steps and examining the process of 'understanding' our topics of interest gradually. So, perhaps we should look at 'the world is real or not' question briefly again before moving on.
We need to recognize that the 'world' (whether real or not) is not in the least affected by answering that question. This is a crucial observation. It's only us, humans, who ask (giraffes don't). The world does what it does day in and day out, irrespective of whether you and I understand what it is with our minds. Sailor Bob's pointer "what's wrong with this moment, if you don't think about it" is relevant. I'm suggesting that the value of asking that question is more in observing where it comes from, 'who is asking it', than in the content.
Same applies to attachments. 'Who' gets attached? It's not so much the notion of enlightenment, etc. but that we come to believe that the notion has value, that it is real. Again, there is a mechanism at work that needs to be seen, spotted, recognized.
Only a process of Meditation, in which there is no meditator, no one who is getting something out of it, no dependency on belief, can show that mechanism in action. It can then be seen that the mechanism just happens as part of what the ego/self does and it's not the whole of 'You/Me'.
_()_
Tony
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Kolomo
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Post by Kolomo on Mar 12, 2015 15:08:09 GMT
Hi Tony, I appreciate your comments about continuing the conversation of whether the world is real or not. I actually wanted to revisit this topic myself. I am back to the thinking that, at least for me, the world is not really real. How could it be? It is just something that grows out of our perception. Even the concept of time could not be real. Whether you’re looking at one second or 10 billion years, when up against infinity these measurements are totally irrelevant; they cannot exist. Knowing that the world is not really real helps in not becoming attached to outcomes and having consuming reactions to un-preferred situations- keeping the boat. Unfortunately, right now I have not been feeling well, just some type of chest cold but, when I have more time, I like to reread some quotes by Ramana and Nisargadatta regarding this
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tony
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Post by tony on Mar 12, 2015 22:37:09 GMT
Kolomo, if the 'world' is not real, then who gets up in the morning to have breakfast? What feels the pain of a toothache? What is suffering a chest cold (which will soon pass)? The unreality is not the world itself but the view we have of it. That is my understanding of Ramana's and Nisargadatta's statements regarding the world as perceived. What It looks like to me may well be different to what It looks like to you. Not only in a physical sense (the rope and the snake analogy) but as to the value we attach to objects (one man's meat is another man's poison).
Another view to describe the reality of what is seen/perceived (forms, objects, thoughts, etc.) is that they are not existing separately from every thing else. In other words, the world is real enough (touch your nose now!) but your nose is not separate from your face, which is not separate from your head...from your body, which is not separate from the air it breathes, not separate from the earth, and the sun, and the solar system, and so on to the whole Universe: all of the 'world' is there all at once as a One Thing made up of all things. Every singularity (the nose) is independent, autonomous and simultaneously totally interdependent on all other forms. In the Buddhist view, this is called interdependent origination, 'if this, then that'. A 'hand' exists only because it is made up of its components (fingers and palm), it is not separate from them. Time, like space, exists only in relation to the existence of things. Time is existence itself, not a separate variable. It cannot exist independently, as an object, because as soon as you try to see it, catch it, etc. it's not there. In that sense, existence is Time-less but perceivable sequentially in time.
_()_
Tony
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Kolomo
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Post by Kolomo on Mar 14, 2015 15:21:54 GMT
Tony, I like rereading your posts. As with all teachings, I get the sense that, in the end, everyone is pointing out the same thing but in slightly different ways. Many times it is just a matter of style. Here is my way of understanding but, as you probably noticed, I like to go back and re-edit to hone in and hopefully get rid of any 'smells'
Who is it that suffers a toothache? We may think it is our person but isn't that really a phenomenal appearance in a constant state of change? In other words, it is an object of imagination. Our true nature could not possibly be such a momentary appearance but rather the unchanging Subject in which appearances appear to appear. Isn't the whole world really just a phenomenal appearance? Appearances are always changing, coming in and out of apparent existence; nothing exists as a truth on its own. It seems to me that at the heart of all attachments are having beliefs about something that is not really real. I was also thinking that is doesn't really matter whether you think the world is real or not but it is important to see that the individual self, who you think you are (whatever that may be), is a false attachment. I think I remember Ramana saying that this was the root of all attachments.
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tony
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Post by tony on Mar 16, 2015 5:12:49 GMT
Hi Kolomo, we are exchanging views and perspectives and ways of expressing 'things' that are not easily expressed or even capable of expression. More accurately, views are being exchanged between people. What they end up meaning to each of us, is simply the meaning we get out of them (so well satirized in the Life of Brian). So, in my view even the sayings of the great Masters are just way of saying things, pointers and descriptions that may be meaningful to you and me and absurd to someone else. To really know what a cat is, one has to be a cat: the only meaning is in the being (it).
So here is another way of expressing it: 'Our true nature could not possibly be such a momentary appearance but rather the unchanging Subject in which appearances appear to appear.' can be modified to the Subject is (none other than) this momentary appearance. They are one and the same. The momentary appearance is the Subject. God is Omnipresent, Transcendent and Immanent.
Therefore (again using Buddhist expressions): Emptiness [The Source of All Things, nothing self-existing, no thing can exist independently] is none other than Form [everything that exists in an impermanent state] and Form is none other than Emptiness. Paradoxically it can also be expressed as: Form is Form and Emptiness is Emptiness. Either way is valid. I AM both Form and Emptiness. My nose is simply my nose, unique in the whole Universe of impermanent things, even though constantly changing so that there is not a 'fixed nose', as there cannot be a 'fixed self'. Therefore, from that perspective, my true nature is impermanent, but nevertheless real. In fact there is no other Reality than the appearance of my nose, etc. This is It.
The delusion arises with the phenomenon of belief in a fixed entity (which is like a dream). At no time however are we other than It (as per our title!).
Another way of putting it is that there cannot be any other reality than the one that is being Experienced Right Now.
_()_
Tony
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bee
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Post by bee on Mar 16, 2015 8:33:10 GMT
A lovely rendition of her music, listen to this live track by Shania Twain and one could substitute God or what a sense of Oneness or Totality is in place of the person she is singing to. The realization is there as long as God isn't objectified.
Here is the canned version and the depiction within the staging lends one to more easily open the awareness that it could be God she is singing to, which is really her own Totality.
"Love", a complete acceptance of what is. And what is - "Is always Right Now."
Tony's perception:
"Another way of putting it is that there cannot be any other reality than the one that is being Experienced Right Now."
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bee
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Post by bee on Mar 16, 2015 19:53:59 GMT
That old question asked only by humans.
Is the world and everything in it, including every person, real?
Is It all real?
Or,
Isn't It all real?
Does anyone have the capability of knowing the answer?
Anyway, does it matter one way or the other?
Regardless if It is or Isn't real..
Maybe the most important question to ask is this-
Do we all, in this precise moment, which is always NOW, do we absolutely, completely, unequivocally with our total being, accept It All as It Is, including every nuance and particle of It?
I know what the answer is,
It's no way we do.
Then next question to throw at ourself is,
'WHY NOT?'
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bee
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Post by bee on Mar 16, 2015 21:21:53 GMT
Shania,
one gutsy performance, well trained yes, but on a stage with no harness,
an unnatural and strange environment for any horse. Amazing!
It's such a beautiful world when we people allow.
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bee
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Post by bee on Mar 16, 2015 22:15:19 GMT
Back on topic of how to make It a living reality - Helps one being reminded of these:
Enlightenment-The ego-less state
Being It
Being present
Intensity in the Now.
The deepest truth of human existence
We are here to explore the deepest truth of who we are
Knowing our self at the deepest level
Knowing self and knowing God are one and the same
Listening to the words and to the stillness of the gaps between the words
The underlying stillness gives access
Listening to No Thing
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Post by clouddust on Mar 17, 2015 0:06:12 GMT
Hi guys,
I love this debate. Really. My opinion: The world is real, we are real and our experiences, though experienced through personal interpretation, are also real and our personal experience is a direct result of what it is we need to learn.
See, I believe, (only recently) in a God who is separate and teaching us. Now I know this may vary from a lot of opinions here, but remember I was invited to participate so just hear me out. Because of this relationship we encounter situations or events in order to learn. To grow us up, so to speak.
In this way, too, all has meaning and all is everything. I won't say anymore (at this time).
What'd ya think of that?
CD
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bee
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Post by bee on Mar 17, 2015 1:42:38 GMT
I do agree that for the majority of the world's population God is indeed separate in their perception.
Then again maybe, upon the death of their unit, they find out that all along they were not separate from
God at all in the experiencing of this life.
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