Kolomo
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Post by Kolomo on Mar 17, 2015 15:35:30 GMT
Appreciated your post CD. I think faith in God could be just the ticket (being raised Catholic, i also think when it gets organized it could easily loose its essence and get twisted and abused). Perhaps, what we are all discussing here is the quality of consciousness. What difference is there between faith in God and faith in ‘I am’? I also find it remarkable that you are open to expressing and discussing your faith when it seems that in a lot of belief systems much effort is put into protecting their beliefs from any opposing criticism. Isn't that why we have wars? The way I see it, as long as we are objects in consciousness we are separate from God. God could be equated with (at least in my mind) 'consciousness devoid of any objective quality' which makes It (or God) inconceivable. There are many ways or paths that point to what the mind can only vaguely or indirectly conceives as ‘no way’, ‘no thing’. This 'no thing' or God is what we need to be open to in our everyday consciousness. -kevin
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tony
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Post by tony on Mar 18, 2015 2:11:32 GMT
Hello Clouddust, from your chosen 'avatar' it looks like you have a zest for life and are capable of finding fun in it as well! I'm glad you are enjoying the 'debate', which I see as a useful exchange of perspectives on a broad theme of interest: who/what are we, what accounts for this world (real or otherwise), what's our purpose, etc. Those perspectives are based on a combination of personal experience, as well as what we have heard and been influenced by. So they don't have to agree with any given point of view (hopefully no one holds the view that their version is the only truth there is!).
The purpose of this interaction (for me) is to be open to hear them dispassionately and do our best to tease out the meaning of the words we use and rework of how we express our understanding as it changes day by day. What we have in common is our willingness to put our views out there, so I trust that our responses are not a counter-argument to anyone's view, but a sharing of 'where we come from'.
In that spirit, I would ask how would any one know that 'God' is actually separate from us. If it is by 'belief' then we are in the realm of 'my' belief vs. 'yours'. If it is by direct experience, then one should be able to give an account of it which some one else could try to verify or experience for themselves.
Can you tell us how you have come to know know of a 'God' who is separate from us?
_()_
Tony
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bee
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Post by bee on Mar 18, 2015 9:35:16 GMT
Attachments!
It's really good to see different viewpoints as it promps me to question myself.
People over the ages have worshipped all manner of separate Entities.
Believing in a separate Entity regardless of what It is and what name we ascribe to It...could this be just another attachment?
Might we all be assigning the responsibility of the actions of oneself to a separate higher entity?
Maybe.
So to investigate a little further I might ask myself this -
Is God just?
If I believe in a separate God, as a completely separate Entity to self, there is no choice for me but to answer no.
How could that God be just?
That God has been and still is prayed to and held at the pinacle of many unspeakable acts by almost all civilisations.
So I wonder then if believing in their God in a way lets them off the hook to do whatever they want and then apportion the blame back to their God.
But when I consider God as the Whole of which we all form part, then the question of is God just changes to -
Am I just?
And it's a good question to reflect upon, not just now, but in the 'present now'.
This means to reflect on this always as the now is always, not just for some ten to twenty minutes or so.
I was involved in a 'so-called' bad situation yesterday where I realised asking, am I being compassionate to one on the recieving end of quite horrific aggression while blaming and not accepting the aggressor?
Then I had a rather acute sense that I am actually both parts, that they do not exist without me or outside of me.
It was a snapshot of realization of the complete situation including everything in it, and while it was separate to me and happening to others, it contained me, my energy, or in fact somehow was me.
'Is God just?
The answer I feel to this question involves me completely.
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tony
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Post by tony on Mar 19, 2015 3:07:23 GMT
It may be useful to clarify the use of expressions.
In and through my practice of Meditation (Surrender to This, Now), I find no evidence of separation between a creator/deity and the created/me. All I know, therefore all I can be, is the ongoing, ceaseless Experiencing of What Arises in the Present Moment, without knowing where from It arises. Both the Experiencing and the Arising are a mystery. They happen. That is what I call God or Be-ing.
The Arising (all Forms, physical and mental) takes shape when seen through sense and mental perceptions associated with a sentient being, i.e. Experiencing is actualized through the subject/object interaction as a means of making Form perceivable. The perceivable arising I what call the 'world'.
Therefore 'God' cannot be described by any one attribute (just, unjust, merciful, wrathful, etc.). It's like the light in the spectrum: it cannot be described as any one single colour or wavelength characteristic. It's all of them at once or none of them. In that sense, each 'one' of us (wavelengths) is completely involved through our actions.
_()_
Tony
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Kolomo
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Post by Kolomo on Mar 19, 2015 3:08:22 GMT
I wrote this before I had a chance to read Tony's post.
I am not sure that groups of people who go out and harm each other really believe in God. I think it’s more likely they objectify God in a way to justify their actions, similar to how some organized religious and political groups operate.
I have been thinking about CDs comments as well. As a path, I think it is just as valid to think of God as a separate entity from which to learn from as any other. I suppose a lot would be contingent on how you define the term God and what God means to you. But I have to say, in my experience, I have only run across three people who I considered to be in a state of ease or deep understanding. It seems to me that you can only sense this in person, not to through the Internet. One was a woman I met in a laundry mat who was clearly in love with Jesus. Kindness, warmth, understanding and love just poured out of her in a natural way. Another one was a woman I met in a Buddhist temple, not the kind of Buddhism white people go to, I think it might have been related to a Pure Land sect. She believed in Buddha much like Christians believe in God. She epitomized calmness, understanding, and kindness. Both of these people did not seem to have a personality of their own. I think what I’m getting at is that the way, the path or any of the pointers that make sense to you have almost nothing to do with achieving a state of ease or grace. Ease and grace come to you, you cannot go to them. Almost any practice with a goal of achieving something is useless. Perhaps, the only thing we can do, what we must do, is remain open.
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