Kolomo
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Post by Kolomo on Mar 6, 2015 16:07:48 GMT
This just caught my interest. So what he is saying is:
In the infant, consciousness is merged with experience. There is no differentiation between consciousness and the sea of experience. In the post egoic adult experience must be reconciled with consciousness. In other words, all experience is consciousness.
The part about reconciling experience with consciousness, does that bring to mind the ‘Ten Oxherding Pictures’?
It seems related to the discussion about attachments. Also, I especially like how he talks to his own son.
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tony
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Post by tony on Mar 11, 2015 10:53:37 GMT
Always good and satisfying to hear Rupert Spira's talks, on any topic. Like many other teachers who speak from direct experience, he is able to come from a 'Standing-as-Awareness' perspective.
I see attachment, the phenomenon of going out to objects (physical and mental) and grasping to possess them, as a mode of the self-centered perspective. When I come from a self-center, a 'me' that senses itself as separate, objects are seen as 'other than me'. 'I' would then try to acquire them, and attach my 'self' to them to be part of my imagined identity. When the self-center gradually dissolves as the predominant perspective, the wider self, replaces it as Identity. Then Experiencing is Identity/Consciousness. No duality.
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Tony
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Kolomo
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Post by Kolomo on Mar 21, 2015 5:38:29 GMT
"When the self-center gradually dissolves as the predominant perspective, the wider self, replaces it as Identity" --
Yes, it seems that this is what Spira refers to in stating experiences must be reconciled with consciousness. This is what vaguely reminded me of the Oxherding pictures (especially the last one), in that once consciousness or awareness is realized you re-enter the world and ‘reconcile’ its forms with awareness. I am sure there is a much less convoluted way to express this. Perhaps, something like in the state of ease nothing is personal.
Another way of looking at this is that you can talk all you want about the different paths. Whether through faith in God, love of Jesus, meditation mindfulness, non dual inquiry; in the end, the answer is not found in mind. Once That is actualized the paths have no meaning (the pathless path). But, what often happens (at least with me) the forms of the world (various challenges and difficulties) draw me back into the realm of mind. Spira seems to say that we go through various stages where in the end, these experiences must be reconciled with awareness. When we are in a state of resistance (unable to reconcile experience) is this not because of attachments; attachment to the idea that things should be different?
If so, this leads to thinking that the ego needs to surrender. But this an impossibility. The ego cannot surrender itself (but it can create a noble fantasy). Possibly, both reconciliation and surrender could be pointed to as non-resistance to resistance; everything is in its right place, just the way it is, no matter how it is. - kevin
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tony
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Post by tony on Mar 22, 2015 5:48:26 GMT
Kolomo, your insight that "in the state of ease nothing is personal" hits the nail on the head. I find the concept of 'perspective' very useful in understanding these matters at the intellectual level (to start with). The ox-herder's perspective has changed from a self-view ( first 3 pictures) to a self-less view (last 2-3), analogous to one climbing up to higher ground to have a more expansive view of the landscape. From that 'higher' level things that could not be seen or only imagined are naturally seen, and reconciled to the view from lower down.
'Perspective' does not imply that higher is better than lower, or a right and a wrong view. It is simply where one is looking from at a given time. To a very young child, the sun coming out of the mountains and setting below them is his 'reality'. We, from a different intellectual point, can still call the phenomenon sunrise and sunset without being caught up by the apparent perspective. That changing of perspective happens subject to all circumstances in one's life. The ego cannot engineer it, as it is itself a perspective, not an entity.
Consciousness is like that. It's impersonal and manifests through each sentient being as it does. The Consciousness of a Jesus and a Buddha, for example, would equate to seeing from the top of the world (or better, from the Moon!). The statement by Ramana Maharshi that 'the world looks nothing like you are seeing' also comes from that higher perspective, and so does 'all is well and all will be well in all manner of things (St. Julienne).
As I see it, understanding God to be separate or not separate from its Creation is seeing from different perspectives. Neither right or wrong, but each one creating different paths of spiritual action. Only when the tendency to conceptualize 'God' is replaced by the realization that God Is (there is nothing other than God) is the path a pathless one. Then the insight 'everything is in its right place, just the way it is, no matter how it is' becomes experiential like it is for the ox-herder in the 10th picture.
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Tony
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